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America's has-been economy
EconomyInCrisis.org ^ | 2005

Posted on 01/08/2006 8:17:33 AM PST by A. Pole

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1 posted on 01/08/2006 8:17:35 AM PST by A. Pole
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To: Willie Green; Wolfie; ex-snook; Jhoffa_; FITZ; arete; FreedomPoster; Red Jones; Pyro7480; ...
Confronted with inconvenient facts, outsourcing's apologists moved to the next level of fantasy. Many technical and engineering jobs, they said, have become "commodity jobs," routine work that can be performed cheaper offshore. America will stay in the lead, they promised, because it will keep the research and development work and be responsible for design and innovation.

Alas, now it is design and innovation that are being outsourced.

Bump

2 posted on 01/08/2006 8:18:37 AM PST by A. Pole (Hush Bimbo: "Low wage is good for you!")
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To: A. Pole
The answer is to become the owners of the firms that hire overseas. "Jobs" is the old way of thinking, since in a global compeition, why should someone pay 10x for American when he can get the same elsewhere. Either we maintain an edge in quality, productivity, or innovation, or we must be the owners. And we can see how the blind American citizenry reacted to President Bush's "ownership society"... :-(
3 posted on 01/08/2006 8:22:49 AM PST by Gondring (I'll give up my right to die when hell freezes over my dead body!)
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To: A. Pole

This has nothing to do with outsourcing and everything to do with American kids being convinced they need to throw a ball or be a rap "artist" instead of scientists or engineers.


4 posted on 01/08/2006 8:22:56 AM PST by mc6809e
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To: A. Pole

Been hearing this since Reagan was elected.

If you listened to these clowns you'd be short the dow 8000 points lower.


5 posted on 01/08/2006 8:23:50 AM PST by Blackirish (Bears Defense #1)
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To: A. Pole
BTT! Bravo!

But be prepared for wild eyed attacks by flamers

6 posted on 01/08/2006 8:24:44 AM PST by ex-Texan (Mathew 7:1 through 6)
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To: A. Pole

And the anti-freetraders who claimed all the computer programming jobs were going overseas were proven to have hyped up the reality of the industry. Low-level, redundant programming jobs were outsourced, but mid- and high-level programming jobs in America continue to rise.


7 posted on 01/08/2006 8:25:16 AM PST by Lunatic Fringe (North Texas Solutions http://ntxsolutions.com)
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To: mc6809e

And quite a bit to do with the fact that most schools are more worried about kids feeling good and knowing th ins and outs of sex, than they are with teaching the 3rs.


8 posted on 01/08/2006 8:29:35 AM PST by x5452
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To: Gondring
Either we maintain an edge in quality, productivity, or innovation, or we must be the owners.

But how can you protects your ownership, when the assets are located over the ocean in the countries with different culture and political system? I think that your property will be as much worth as American Indian rights to the land.

9 posted on 01/08/2006 8:29:45 AM PST by A. Pole (Hush Bimbo: "Low wage is good for you!")
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To: Lunatic Fringe

Where I work all the new programmer hires are coming from China. The job posting comes up people from other tech departments and programming degrees apply and the ompany ends up flying some Chinese girl in.


10 posted on 01/08/2006 8:31:03 AM PST by x5452
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To: Lunatic Fringe
Low-level, redundant programming jobs were outsourced, but mid- and high-level programming jobs in America continue to rise.

How will you get the "high-level" programmers, if the entry path starting from "low-level" is gone? Oh, I know, you will bring them from abroad!

11 posted on 01/08/2006 8:34:29 AM PST by A. Pole (Hush Bimbo: "Low wage is good for you!")
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To: A. Pole
Today many computer, electrical and electronics engineers, who were well paid at the end of the 20th century, are unemployed and cannot find work

So let's have a tech bubble, hire a grillion programmers we don't need, and when the bubble bursts blame someone else.

12 posted on 01/08/2006 8:36:19 AM PST by groanup (Shred for Ian)
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To: Blackirish
What is even funnier is how the author completely ignores the jobs numbers. The US economy has been adding jobs at about 200,000/month for better than 18 months now. This is the ultimate "goldilocks" number for our economy. And that is why the stock market is up 60% from the cyclical bear market low established in the spring of 03. Our 4.9% unemployment rate is the envy of the developed world.

It isn't free trade that threatens jobs in the United States it is illegal immigration. Illegal immigration is destroying the entry level rungs of the job ladder. Illegal aliens are taking the jobs that would otherwise go to displaced factory workers and other workers who are in flux. Raising the minimum wage, which was in the news last week, will make the problem even worse. Raising the minimum wage increases the attractiveness of employing people outside the law.

I am all for eliminating the punitive taxes and mandates that make offshoring attractive. But you can't whine and wail about offshoring while ignoring illegal immigration. To do so is just plain silly.

13 posted on 01/08/2006 8:36:48 AM PST by trek
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To: A. Pole
Whether or not they realize it, US corporations have written off the US consumer market. People who do not participate in the innovation, design, engineering and manufacture of the products that they consume lack the incomes to support the sales infrastructure of the job diverse "old economy."

I hope that this is incorrect, but I fear it is true. Certainly, you cannot have an Akihabara unless you have the manufacturers, but it would be nice to at least eventually to have access to the high-end goods. For instance, shake-resistant binoculars were widely available in Japan long ago; in fact, I don't recall seeing them yet for sale in retail stores in the U.S., though I do see from a Google search that they are for sale from Amazon.

14 posted on 01/08/2006 8:38:04 AM PST by snowsislander
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To: x5452
Where I work all the new programmer hires are coming from China. The job posting comes up people from other tech departments and programming degrees apply and the ompany ends up flying some Chinese girl in. And at my company we just fired the outsourcing company who promised big things with peasant labor from India and China. No free lunch, the engineering degrees from India and China suck, so they can prove linear Algebra equations and blather on with their broken accents. Fact is they are automatons, lacking creativity and drive. I am not worried about the Far East and their 8 dollar per hour engineers. I am worried about moron owners and senior managers dumping their company’s future with the human chattle overseas.
15 posted on 01/08/2006 8:38:18 AM PST by lwg8tr
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To: A. Pole

Get more education (MS, PhD), and start in a mid-level job.


16 posted on 01/08/2006 8:40:37 AM PST by oblomov
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To: A. Pole

Good point. Government nationalizing foreign owner assets has happeened before, and will happen again. The worst may be yet to come, Communist China (it is communist last time I checked) does not have a legal system, much less an international legal system; all these American companies have set up shop there on a handshake and as long as the dictators say everything is working in their favor, American business produces using Chinese slave labor. The second that changes, good luck with your claims American business. And don't forget the huge foreign trade deficit with the Chinese.

A counter argument might be that they can't afford to hurt their relationship with us; their people will uprise. Really; and the Chinese communist army will sit idly by, like at Tianemmen Square? We like to look the other way as long as the Chinese dictatorship allows us to your their citizens for cheap labor, and the Chinese continue to use their profits to update their military, steal trade and high tech secrets, and create relationships with other enemies of the United States. We are profitable in the short run, fools in the long run.


17 posted on 01/08/2006 8:42:06 AM PST by john drake (roman military maxim: "oderint dum metuant, i.e., let them hate, as long as they fear")
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To: A. Pole
So the answer is France? Throw high-tariffs around all imports to protect national industries (like the French auto-industry - ensuring high-prices, low quality and few choices)?

We saw after the 1973 oil crisis what such a "protected" industry here in the US would do (the then "big four" auto makers) in the face of overwhelming consumer demand for smaller, higher-mileage, higher quality automobiles: exactly nothing (which is why the Japanese came in and stole their lunch money).

The government should no more be in the business of protecting producers at the expense of consumers than it should be in the business of protecting consumers (with price controls) at the expense of producers.

N.B. Many of those "highly paid" computer engineers who were employed "at the end of the century" were nothing more than 20 something script kiddies employed at outrageous salaries by dot coms fueled by ignorant investors who assumed that the stock market could never go down again. They NEVER would have been employed (much less at those salaries) if the unemployment rate hadn't been at 2%...

18 posted on 01/08/2006 8:42:13 AM PST by Philistone (Turning lead into gold...)
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To: lwg8tr

Programmers like myself are certainly aware of these forigners lack of creativity and ability (Actually though I'd put India and Russia on a higher run with regard to ability and Russian programmers are quite creative, the one's I've met at least, most dont look for work overseas though. The Chinese are like worker bees, and have about the same brain capacity, and creatie ability. They aren't much use without a hive.)

Still HR sees their degrees and the cheap price and passes up tech folks in the company every time one of these positions comes up.


19 posted on 01/08/2006 8:43:28 AM PST by x5452
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To: Philistone

First and foremost we need to promote math and science better in schools.


20 posted on 01/08/2006 8:44:27 AM PST by x5452
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