US-German Relations - Berlin's Concern about America's Image

Der Spiegel ^ | January 4, 2006 | David Crossland

[Atlantic Bridge]

The United States needs to separate the good European people from their socialist, sneering elites. We need to get Fox News there, some good conservative blogs. Those poor Europeans are so brainwashed. Their elites control the media, the schools, the courts.

Let's put one thing straight. WE conservatives are the intellectual elite of Europe. To believe in socialism means to be either brainwashed or being dumb. I refuse calling those silly leftist morons intellectuals.

I share your view that we need something like FR or Fox News in Europe. A little start is David's Medienkritik which is also available in English:

http://medienkritik.typepad.com/

[bert]

.....America's reputation among the European public is waning....

.....Americans' opinions of Germany has fallen low as well....

It can be argued that Kerry lost the presidency and the balance of American opinion toward Europe. The Rumsfield quip about "old Europe" carried much more weight than the descriptive "friends and allies"

The ties between multinational corporations are the glue still holding it all together.

[Michael81Dus]

From the country that gave the world Hitler.

Where was Hitler born? Which nationality was his original, and were his parents German or Austrian? So tell me, which country gave the world Hitler, Mr. I-keep-attacking-Germans-of-today-because-of-Germanys-past??

[Senator Bedfellow]

You don't think that's a rather natural reaction to the attitudes we're being told exist, and which we can quite readily observe for ourselves?

Dunno what to tell you, but the notion that Germany and France suck didn't spring up in a vacuum - it's not like we all woke up here one morning and suddenly decided not to like you. Instead, it's something that's pretty much evolved after witnessing decades worth of anti-Americanism amongst you all, tacitly endorsed and supported by your governments. You don't like that attitude, that Germany sucks? Try a little root-cause analysis on that attitude, and see where it came from.

[xzins]

The German people have absolutely no interest to be one.

Tricks and mirrors.

The Germans certainly have aggressively pursued political power on the world stage. Their chemical, industrial, and technological sales to dictators around the globe are testimony that they wish to be a player. Their campaign to acquire power at the top of the UN Security Council is also telling. Finally, they and France are the core of Old Europe, and they are aggressive in issuing political threats to other EU nations.

Simple question, my friend.

Will the EU have a military?

So far as their being the 3rd largest economy, that, too, is not quite right:

From the CIA Word Factbook: Germany's affluent and technologically powerful economy - the fifth largest in the world - has become one of the slowest growing economies in the euro zone. A quick turnaround is not in the offing in the foreseeable future. Growth in 2001-03 fell short of 1%, rising to 1.7% in 2004. The modernization and integration of the eastern German economy continues to be a costly long-term process, with annual transfers from west to east amounting to roughly $70 billion. Germany's aging population, combined with high unemployment, has pushed social security outlays to a level exceeding contributions from workers. Structural rigidities in the labor market - including strict regulations on laying off workers and the setting of wages on a national basis - have made unemployment a chronic problem. Corporate restructuring and growing capital markets are setting the foundations that could allow Germany to meet the long-term challenges of European economic integration and globalization, particularly if labor market rigidities are further addressed. In the short run, however, the fall in government revenues and the rise in expenditures have raised the deficit above the EU's 3% debt limit. http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/gm.html

That said, I have spent 7 years of my life in Germany on different military assignments, and I find it a beautiful nation with great traditions, a wonderful culture, and friendly people.

[kabar]

My impression is that the vision of America inside the German society is completely different to the one we had during the 80ties or 90ties. Permanent leftist propaganda and existing differences in values and views spoiled the positive image that the US had in Germany. Today many Germans believe into a caricature that has nothing to do with the realities. They see America somehow as a christian theocracy with a Walt-Disney-justice that raids other countries because of Halliburton. Of course there are enough informed Germans who are staunch friends of the US, but the public mainstream goes a different way.

German perceptions of America have changed for a number of reasons. First, the end of the Cold War, the reunification of Germany, and a declining US military presence in Germany have lessened their dependence on and personal associations with the US, which have affected their perceptions. Second, the older post WWII generation is dying out. The Berlin airlift, Marshall Plan, etc. are becoming distant memories. The former East Germans also contribute to changing or differing perceptions. Finally, the EU including Germany see the US as a competitor economically and politically.

People have short memories about European public opinion on America. During the Vietnam War, the Europeans demonstrated against the US and expressed far more violent and extreme public views against the US. The difference was that their governments couldn't be anti-American given their dependence on the US to protect them against the Soviets. Europe is dying. They face a foreboding, tumultuous future as they try to deal with the impact of declining and aging populations, an overly generous social welfare system they can't afford, and a flood of Islamic immigrants.

[Atlantic Bridge]

Tricks and mirrors. The Germans certainly have aggressively pursued political power on the world stage.

No tricks and mirrors. I was speaking about millitary power not political power. Of course Germany is interested to gain political influence. You will agree that this is legitimate.

Will the EU have a military?

Furthermore it is legitimate if the EU develops into something better. Therefore it will have a millitary sooner or later

The EU isn't just a free trade area. There is a clear trend to a closer networked Europe especially inside "old" Europe. Not so far from now I am quite sure that there is a conferderation between France, Germany, Beligium, Holland and Luxemburg (maybe Spain) where those nations give in their foreign policy and defense into a bigger federal structure. To me it is also clear, that it is not possible to countries with a extremely strong national foundation -like Poland i.e.- to loose those privileges by joining such a European "superstate".

I suppose that most informed politicians in western continental Europe are very well aware of that. The European challenge of the future will be that on one side it must be possible to each nation to join those political networks it want to be in, on the other side it is essential to everybody that the political and economical foundations of the current EU are developed and expanded.

Poland for example will probably prefer a closer political alliance with the US, while the "nations" of this still virtual "superstate" obviously are going to define their own agenda. There is much dynamite in such a development. Just think about all those US-installations that are still located in Germany... What will happen with NATO? Will this "superstate" be ruled by morons like Chriac or Schroeder or will the new faces like Merkel and Sarkozy play their game? And - will it be possible to define the relations between the US and old Europe into something new that is going to be fruitful and good?

On the other hand the members of this new conferderation can do many reasonable things like combining their millitary or use their bigger political weight to take influence on certain issues of their interest. Maybe we are even able to get rid of some useless administration. Who knows?

One thing is for sure: History will never end.

So far as their being the 3rd largest economy, that, too, is not quite right:

There are different statements about the size of the German economy. One source where it is labeled as 3rd largest economy:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051229/ap_on_bi_ge/germany_economy

They probably count different. In Germany we have an old bonmot: I only trust into those statistics that I have falsified by myself.

:-)

[Atlantic Bridge]

Europe is dying. They face a foreboding, tumultuous future as they try to deal with the impact of declining and aging populations, an overly generous social welfare system they can't afford, and a flood of Islamic immigrants.

Wait and see.

[kabar]

Alea jacta est.

[Atlantic Bridge]

Audaces fortuna juvat! Quot capita tot sensus.

[Lucky Dog]

Some observations for your consideration. (Background: I lived in Germany for 3.5 years, owned a house there and lived in other parts of Europe for another 3.5 years continuously before retuning to the US):

Realpolitik:

1. Europe as a whole (and Germany in particular) constitutes a significant portion of the world economy and is one the US’s major trading partners. Consequently, the health of the US economy is inextricably tied to the European economy, in general (and Germany’s, in particular). Therefore, a collapse (or even a major disruption) of the European economy (or Germany’s) would have incredibly negative effects for the US economy and, thus, our national well-being. Obviously, the reverse side of that “coin” is true as well. As a result, no cogent and serious US or European politician would intentionally allow trans-Atlantic relations to deteriorate to a real “adversarial” relationship.

2. Some politicians (and a fair number of citizens) on both sides of the Atlantic are neither “cogent” nor “serious.” Additionally, a small, but significant, number of citizens and politicians on both sides of the Atlantic (perhaps a bit higher number in Europe) are committed ideologues who are adamantly opposed to capitalism and the current portion of the globe’s democratic world order. These ideologues are willing to accept a collapse of the world economy (and many other, more detrimental impacts) to achieve their vision of “utopia.” The numbers and influence of these people are a great deal more dominant in the “press” than in the population in general.

3. Uncountered propaganda actually works on a great portion of any population as has been evidenced by the efforts of Josef Goebbles (individually coordinated) in WW II and the US press (ideologically coordinated) during the Viet Nam conflict (but a few of many possible examples).

4. There are more than a few “useful idiots” on both sides of the Atlantic.

5. The “best” course of political action (real or perceived) for individual, sovereign nations will seldom, if ever, completely align. Consequently, nationally committed politicians adopt compromise positions to achieve the “best” alternative solutions for international political action.

6. All politicians are committed to acquiring, increasing and retaining individual power. For ideologues and corrupt individuals of other political stripes, the ends always justify the means, regardless of the consequences to anyone but themselves. Consequently, individual political courses of action for ideologues and corrupt individuals, appear to align quite frequently. Such “alignment” makes seemingly, ridiculous, coordinated national political party positions (in any country) in opposition to “real” national interests, not only possible, but reality. These types of politicians stand in opposition to “compromise” international political action because such seldom furthers their own individual pursuit of political power. However, where multiple countries are controlled (either democratically or otherwise) by ideologues and corrupt politicians, “compromise” international political positions can, and do, exist that are counter to the best interest of the entire international community.

7. The only counter to ideologues and corrupt politicians in a democracy (where voters actually determine the distribution of power) is widespread availability of the truth.

Conclusion: Currently, the internet and “alternative” news sources such as talk radio, etc. are the major counters to seizure of international political power by ideologues and corrupt politicians.

[Tribune7]

Furthermore it would be helpful if both sides are mature enough to accept that there are differences in values and views.

It isn't that we have a problem with your values or views, it's that when we were trying to put pressure on Hussein to AVOID a war, France, Germany and Russia gave him cover. The reason, I'm convinced, is widespread corruption among those political establishments.

Anyway, a bump for whatever European friends we might have.

[jimbo123]

Okay, let me clarify, Hitler's mom gave birth to him. The German people gave him his power and their mandate to wreak death and destruction across the continent.

[xzins]

In my mind, the desire to have power is similar whether acquired by influence or military. In Germany's case, once the EU is the one entity that you envision, and since it will have a military, then Germany will again be part of a group that aims to acquire and keep power. They will not care much if the power comes from influence or from military.

[Atlantic Bridge]

Hitler is dust since 61 years. He is just not a matter of actual interest anymore. If you have the obsession to go deeper into the issue - here are his bones:

http://www.benecke.com/hitler_skull_express.pdf

Have fun.

[Atlantic Bridge]

In Germany's case, once the EU is the one entity that you envision, and since it will have a military, then Germany will again be part of a group that aims to acquire and keep power. They will not care much if the power comes from influence or from military.

We will care since in difference to 1939 contemporary Germany exists of educated and civilized people. Germans are absolutely not gung ho to begin new wars. It is possible that we stand in for our interests, but we will not start wars because of base motives. If you have lived in my country you probably know that we have the higest rate of peaceniks worldwide. BTW - One of the biggest problems to create such a confederation are the French with their foolish "grand nation" attitudes since we Germans do not want to be involved into their little post-colonial games.

[Atlantic Bridge]

This is a good summary. It hits exactly the point.

You said:

The only counter to ideologues and corrupt politicians in a democracy (where voters actually determine the distribution of power) is widespread availability of the truth. Conclusion: Currently, the internet and “alternative” news sources such as talk radio, etc. are the major counters to seizure of international political power by ideologues and corrupt politicians.

As already said before Europe needs something like FR or Fox News to recieve unfiltered information.

[kabar]

Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.

[americanbychoice2]

The public perception in Germany has much to do with the never ceasing attacks of anything "American" in the leftist media.
Most Germans gt their "news" (mostly editorials and personal feelings, from TV and Spiegel, Stern, TAZ, Die Welt, Sueddeutsche zeitung, etc.

Goebbels apprentices are now Lehrlinge who have learned how to influence German thinking. It may come at a high price down the road.

[xzins]

When you become part of a federal European Union, the issue will not be what the German people do or do not desire. You will be no different than a state in the United States. Your votes will count but you will be only one of many states.

If they go off on a military adventure, so will Germany.