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An intersting article I ran across. Very well reasoned.
1 posted on 01/04/2006 11:14:41 PM PST by ghostcat
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To: ghostcat
Nice article.

"However, this can be overcome quite simply by the introduction of a new .270 cartridge using the 7.62x51 (.308 Winchester) case."


I see we are back to the 7mm Mauser.(grin) or it's modern incarnation, the 7mm/08.
2 posted on 01/04/2006 11:26:30 PM PST by headstamp (Nothing lasts forever, Unless it does.)
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To: ghostcat

Whatever is chosen, lube it with bacon grease and make sure the world knows it.


3 posted on 01/04/2006 11:28:21 PM PST by Hank Rearden (Never allow anyone who could only get a government job attempt to tell you how to run your life.)
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To: ghostcat

.270 is a fine round...however, if ya like it...look at the .280. Its even better.


My money goes for the .308 or the '06.


4 posted on 01/04/2006 11:30:34 PM PST by Khurkris ("Hell, I was there"...Elmer Keith.)
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To: ghostcat
I agree with the conclusion of the 6.85 x 51mm round as a good ideal projectile. However, some rifle redesign needs to take place to be able to hold on target under auto fire. Something like the roller blowback delay of the HK-G3/91, plus top gas tube piston compensation and a rifle barrel compensator combination will need to be introduced.
5 posted on 01/04/2006 11:31:19 PM PST by MedicalMess
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To: ghostcat; Eaker
In short, the author is saying there's a need for a new 7mm cartridge based on the .308 Winchester case.

That's basically the antiquated French 7.5mm MAS loaded with modern propellant. We'd need an entirely new rifle system that would suspiciously end up looking just like our old rifle system that was uniformly abandoned by every participating NATO member.

I've heard this baloney before. The modern trend for accuracy is a shorter and wider case that provides for a fast flame wall using a 6.5mm projectile. We already have better (and equally archaic) 7mm cartridges than what the author proposes, and if you're going to base it on the .308 Winchester case, stop screwing around and just go with the existing 7.62 NATO round so we can all pretend it's 1956 again.

What? We're going to bring back FALs and M14s? I have serious reservations about both designs. Ask Eaker to show you pics of his old M1A.

What's needed is something along the lines of the Steyr AUG-A2 in 6.5mm PPC with an updated accurized trigger system. End of discussion.

6 posted on 01/04/2006 11:33:00 PM PST by The KG9 Kid (Semper Fi!)
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To: ghostcat
"I have personally experimented with my Omark single shot, heavy barrel target rifle, which has a Weaver 8 power scope fitted. Using 150 grain Sierra MatchKing HPBTs, IMR-4064 powder...."

What caliber were you using? .308? 30-06? 300 mag?

I'm thinking it was a 30-06. The .308 was brought out to provide a shorter throw in the action which reduced the weight, but 30-06 equivalent ballistics are not possible with IMR 4064, due to the smaller powder capacity of the .308.

The .308's ballistics required the use of the more dense filling made possible by using the ball powders, which can be a little tricky up in the maximun load range.

8 posted on 01/04/2006 11:37:32 PM PST by nightdriver
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To: ghostcat

Well, the projectile weight is a more or less given, out of modern propellants one have already squeezed about everything possible, thus the only place to look at to get lighter rounds for carry purposes would be the caseless ammo. And these developments are in the experimental stage.


11 posted on 01/04/2006 11:42:06 PM PST by GSlob
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To: ghostcat

Thanks for posting this!


13 posted on 01/04/2006 11:47:13 PM PST by de Buillion (The War on Terror is Crusade 2001. We need a formal declaration of war!)
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To: ghostcat
Why they ever abandoned these powerful cartridges, exchanging them for the .223 (5.56mm) "squib" used in the M16 Armalite rifle, is anybody's guess. (The official reasons included reducing recoil and facilitating fully automatic fire. -Ed.)

I believe the ability for a soldier to be able to carry about three times as much ammo was a major factor also.

14 posted on 01/04/2006 11:50:18 PM PST by Hugin
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To: ghostcat

I am a Nam Special Forces veteran, and I have lugged both the M-14 and the M-16 many miles with ammo and a full combat pack. There are advantages with the M-14, however lots of ammo is extremely important, and when in the brush that is a MAJOR problem with the 7.62. I will take the M-16 any day of the week over the M-14.


19 posted on 01/05/2006 12:11:18 AM PST by GarySpFc (De Oppresso Liber)
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To: ghostcat

If full auto is a problem then they should think about going to a 2 or 3 round burst capability. This cuts down on the recoil AND the heat that is generated in full auto. Soldiers don't need to rip off 30 rounds without stopping. 3 round bursts allow better control and give plenty of firepower to the individual.


29 posted on 01/05/2006 1:53:31 AM PST by calex59
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To: ghostcat

Bump for later...


32 posted on 01/05/2006 2:31:45 AM PST by gridlock
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To: ghostcat

Later read.


35 posted on 01/05/2006 5:16:35 AM PST by OKSooner
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To: ghostcat
(1) Does the selected calibre have minimal bullet drop at ranges out to a minimum of 400 yards (366 metres)?

(2) Is the complete round suitable for self-loading rifles (in overall length)?

(3) Is the projectile heavy enough to deliver sufficient knock down power (Kinetic Energy) at all ranges out to 400 yards?

(4) Will the trajectory of the projectile be relatively flat when compared with other suitable ammunition?

(5) Is a complete round (i.e. cartridge case + projectile + powder + primer) light enough to allow a soldier to carry a minimum of 300 rounds on his person?

(6) Will the selected calibre and projectile be accurate enough to shoot groups of 5 inches/125mm or less at the stipulated minimum range? (The rifle being used will be a factor here.)

(7) Will the selected calibre and projectile be able to attain velocities of at least 3000 FPS from a self loading service rifle?

Small point, if the cartridge can accomplish 1 thru 6, why is 7 relavent?

Also, isn't this sort of an apples and oranges comparison? The 30.06 and 7.62 Nato are rifle rounds. The 5.56 Nato and the 7.62x39 are assult rifle rounds intended to fill the gap between pistol (SMG) rounds and rifle (BAR) rounds. (I wish the author had included the 7.62x39 in his charts.)

40 posted on 01/05/2006 10:36:30 AM PST by MileHi ( "It's coming down to patriots vs the politicians." - ovrtaxt)
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