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To: saganite
Sheesh. Looks like I got it backwards but as I understand it now the case finally said nothing about 4th amendment rights as the appeals court said he failed to assert them. Cosequently this case says nothing about the current debate. Is that right?

The fact pattern admits obfuscation, since more than one government agency is involved. I'll try to make a short version with regard to the "warrantless wiretapping" charge. The lower court held that the government action violated Jabara's fourth amendment rights because the FBI selection of NSA intercepts ("give us all your Jabara stuff") targeted Jabara, was not accompanied by a warrant, and Jabara did not fit the "foreign agent" definition.

The Circuit Court of appeals construed the lower court decision in a specific way, "that Jabara's fourth amendment rights were violated when the FBI, without a warrant, obtained the summaries of his overseas telegraphic communications." The Circuit Court focused on the passing of information from the NSA to the FBI, and blew off any questions about the obtaining or "filtering" of NSA-held data. Intellectually, that's pretty cheezy. At any rate, the Circuit Court said the NSA surveillance was lawfully received because Jabara didn't assert otherwise; and information in the lawful possession of the NSA can be passed to the FBI without a warrant.

I think the fact pattern is pretty square with the fact pattern at hand in the current NSA debate; but if you take the Circuit Court case on it's face, it doesn't probe the questions of obtaining, filtering or forwarding NSA-held data. In that sense, I think it isn't helpful. As a matter of intellectual pursuit, the two cases together are darn good.

Eventually, what one who studies this stuff realizes, is that nearly ALL appellate cases are outcome driven. The fact that this Circuit Court decision is (IMO) logically weak does not mean that its outcome would not be upheld under a Supreme Court review. Right now, this case is the law of the Circuit.

228 posted on 01/04/2006 10:10:15 AM PST by Cboldt
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To: Cboldt

Thanks. I appreciate your efforts to enlighten us.


237 posted on 01/04/2006 8:21:36 PM PST by saganite (The poster formerly known as Arkie 2)
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