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Posted on 01/02/2006 7:39:23 PM PST by gregwest
And CalJones and all other Christians, if you will indulge me, I would like to ask you one last question. I believe you all believe that we are the children of God. Now, consider the type of being that the Jesus Christ of the New Testament is, think of all that he taught and represented. Do you think He would condemn all the billions of people who have been born throughout history and lived their lives without even having the chance to hear about Christ? This may just be another example of misunderstanding the teachings of Christ in the 4 gospels, but it seems to me like that Christ would never condemn all of those people just because he decided that they should be born in that time and that place.
Before I definitively address your question, let me pose this this one to you ... for your thoughts and consideration ...Do you not think it at all suspect that Mormon leaders teaders, essentially, teach their followers that they cannot understand the message of God for themselves ... that it must be interpreted for them ... by their church leadership ?Do you really believe that God would allow the distribution of His Word to the world's people ... all the while knowing that ... they couldn't really understand it ?
This type of thought is quite similar to what the Catholics believe (i.e. that they must defer to the interpretation of the Catholic church) ... and, IMO, is really just a device which keeps people from seeking out God's truth for themselves.
Twenty-five years ago, I was in a situation where the validity of my christianity was challenged ... and the statement was made ... that I only believed what I did ... because that was what I was taught.
Aside from any other points made by my questioners, I recognized that on that score, ... they were right. I had not made my own search for God's truth.
I was in the unfortunate position of ... possibly being mistaken in my beliefs ... because those who taught me were mistaken.
I decided that night to do my own investigation of God's truth, ... so that when God asked me why He should allow me into His paradise ... I could say ... "Because You said so" ... rather than ... "Because they said so".
In the twenty-five years which have followed, ... I have not regretted for a moment that I took such a step. I am now grounded in my beliefs, ... and not because of what anyone else has said, ... but only because of what God has said.
Whatever your beliefs, ... I heartily encourage you to make this same type of investigation for yourself.
I would hate to be told by God that those men in whom I had placed my trust ... were wrong. Seek out God's truth for yourself. It will be a blessing to you ... and to those whose lives you touch.
Now, as to your question ... I believe that God loves His human creation (i.e. John 3:16) ... and that, for this reason, He has placed His truth out among us ... and at our disposal.
I believe that God will save ... all those who would desire to be saved.
I do not believe that there will be any souls lost ... because they didn't have access to His truth. I trust that God will get His truth to all those who might be blessed by it.
We should remember that many times God works in ways which we do not see ... and do not understand.
that He will bring all those who would be His children ... home.
The Old Testament Bible writing of Jeremiah supports me in this belief ...Jeremiah 29:12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.
13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
Could you be a good Christian if you accepted the Bible as it is?
There is a great deal of blather and balderdash on the internet. Your opinion of the prophet Joseph Smith is your opinion. Your opinion was not gained with the instructions of the first chapter of the Book of James and you know it.
Perhaps you should find some other group to bash, such as baptists.
Pitiful argument. We are taught to read and pray for understanding. You know, as in the first chapter of the Book of James. New Testament. Holy Bible. That book.
Pitiful argument. We are taught to read and pray for understanding. You know, as in the first chapter of the Book of James. New Testament. Holy Bible. That book.
And you don't believe that Christians do (pray and ask for understanding) ?
Even though the book of James is in our collection of scriptures ?
Of course, christians pray and ask for understanding of the revelation of God.
Has you reading and prayer provided you with an answer to the question in post #297 ?
No, "they" was a mob with painted faces in conspiracy with the jail guards, probably whipped up to do it by their local pastors, more than a few of whom were openly calling for the killing of Mormons.
Thanks for the correction on current Baptist practice. Originally, though, the practice was considered essential, thus the name of the denomination.
Yes, as well as the conflict between the cited verses and the first chapters of Genesis. Which do you believe?
Yes, as well as the conflict between the cited verses and the first chapters of Genesis. Which do you believe ?
I believe both.
There is no conflict between Isaiah and Genesis.
Only, perhaps, a lack of understanding by some, ... though not all.
Did you get a chance to listen to the talk on
Why the Fall of Adam Was Necessary?
Perhaps you don't understand the meanings of We, Us and I. The first two are plural and the last is singular. The Lord refers to the first two in Genesis and the latter in Isaiah.
There is Elohim the Most High God. He is not alone. Not at all.
You know, the discussion of referring to divinity in the plural or singular is interesting, especially in view of the Jerusalem/Bethlehem discussion from yesterday. In that case, it was unfathomable that prophets would use different language in referring to the birthplace of Christ, even if both could easily be seen as referring to Christ's birthplace and were even explained by the context of the situation.
Here we have God speaking (or at least speaking through prophets), and using very different language in different instances, but those differences are brushed aside because they don't support the underlying argument. Perhaps the same level of analysis and scrutiny could be applied here as well.
Perhaps you don't understand the meanings of We, Us and I. The first two are plural and the last is singular. The Lord refers to the first two in Genesis and the latter in Isaiah.
There is Elohim the Most High God. He is not alone. Not at all.
He is, certainly, not alone.
But there is no God outside of Him.
Certainly none that used to be men.
Do you realize what the serpent's lie was in the garden ?Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Did you get a chance to listen to the talk on ...
Why the Fall of Adam Was Necessary?
Not yet ... restornu.
Been workin'
"Do you realize what the serpent's lie was in the garden ?
Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. "
I always thought that the serpant's lie was located in 3:4, because, as (I think) we all agree, Adam and Eve became mortal by eating the fruit.
As for 3:5, I also think that we agree that the first part was not a lie; in fact, Adam's and Eve's eyes were opened. How else did they know they were naked and hide from God? In fact, Genesis 3:7 confirms that this wasn't a lie, when it says that their eyes were opened.
Now this leads us to the second part of 3:5. First, there are two ways to look at the "and ye shall be as Gods" language. The first is that it means they will be as Gods in every sense, which seems to be your contention, and that this was a lie. However, it is just as plausible, if not moreso, to read that they will just be as Gods to the degree that they will know good and evil. If this is the true meaning, then it's just a continuation of the first half of the verse and also true, as confirmed in verse 7.
If, however, it is to be interpreted as you suggest, to mean that they will become as Gods in every sense, then how do we know this is a lie? Sure the serpant had lied about living forever, but immediately preceding this (in the same line of thought) he had told them a truth, concerning their eyes being opened. How do we know whether he was continuing to tell the truth or if he had reverted to his deceitful ways? This passage doesn't come close to proving either side, it is too fraught with ambiguity (as is much of what has been discussed here over the past couple of days).
"Do you realize what the serpent's lie was in the garden ?Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. "
I always thought that the serpant's lie was located in 3:4, because, as (I think) we all agree, Adam and Eve became mortal by eating the fruit.
As for 3:5, I also think that we agree that the first part was not a lie; in fact, Adam's and Eve's eyes were opened. How else did they know they were naked and hide from God? In fact, Genesis 3:7 confirms that this wasn't a lie, when it says that their eyes were opened.
Now this leads us to the second part of 3:5. First, there are two ways to look at the "and ye shall be as Gods" language. The first is that it means they will be as Gods in every sense, which seems to be your contention, and that this was a lie. However, it is just as plausible, if not moreso, to read that they will just be as Gods to the degree that they will know good and evil. If this is the true meaning, then it's just a continuation of the first half of the verse and also true, as confirmed in verse 7.
If, however, it is to be interpreted as you suggest, to mean that they will become as Gods in every sense, then how do we know this is a lie? Sure the serpant had lied about living forever, but immediately preceding this (in the same line of thought) he had told them a truth, concerning their eyes being opened. How do we know whether he was continuing to tell the truth or if he had reverted to his deceitful ways? This passage doesn't come close to proving either side, it is too fraught with ambiguity (as is much of what has been discussed here over the past couple of days).
Which is why I go to Isaiah (the prophet) ... to clarify the issue.
Here God says that there have been no other, ... neither are there any other, ... nor will there ever be any other ... Gods besides Him.
see post #297
I think these gods lower case g!
Only the Godhead is capital G!
Here God says that there have been no other, ... neither are there any other, ... nor will there ever be any other ... Gods besides Him.
see post #297
****
There are different families of spirits which spirits are eternal and I feel the scribes did not make that clarification.
There are the Spirit children of Heavenly Father and their other spirits which are not of this Hevenly family and are lesser than this Heavenly family!
When I talk about spirits eternal meaning like Lucifer even though evil will always be in existance and so will his followers!
The spirit children of Heavenly Father are receiving instructions from Heavenly Father that there is no other only Heavely Father is the Prime Directive!
All forms of the word GODS in the Text of the Standard Works.
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=gods&search.x=40&search.y=8
Ex. 23: 32
32 Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods.
Deut. 6: 14
14 Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you;
Deut. 10: 17
17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
****
THE BOOK OF
PSALMS
PSALM 82
Thus saith the Lord: Ye are gods and children of the Most High.
Psalm of Asaph.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
****
A Psalm of Asaph.
1 GOD standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
A Psalm of Asaph.
1 GOD standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
So ... are you a god ... now ?
Or ... do you have the potential ... to become a god ?
Or ... do you have the potential ... to become a God ?
And ... if those referred to in Psalm 82 ... are wicked ... and will die like men, ...
... then, what is the difference between them ... and men ?
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
I realize that unless you twist the plain language the Lord uses, you have to admit that either He was talking to someone else or is insane. I prefer to believe that God is not insane. You may believe whatever you wish.
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