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Middle Class Job Losses Batter Economy
Associated Press | January 2 2006 | Associated Press and Vicki Smith

Posted on 01/02/2006 4:19:44 AM PST by ventana

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To: Havoc
Who cares what they wanted. Perot took 19% after he bailed. Clinton couldn't even get a simple majority in two terms. Perot disaffected his base and much of his following when he bailed initially and still got 19%. It was unheard of; but, the guy had popular support. If it hadn't been for the dirty tricks, he'd have won. Plain and simple. Do you have a more concise, logical point to make, or is "circus act" the best you can do? At least knitpick my spelling or something to show us how intelligent you are by comparison. I'll even give you a freabie <-- hint. Did you catch it, or do you need help?

Oh Really?

Perot was promted on the LKL show as a presidential candidate when he was a political nobody. Perot later drops when he has a high level of support. Then Perot -- gee, golly gosh -- comes back in again when it has become almost impossible for him to win.

Bill Clinton then wins.

You don't think that's a circus -- I do.

You're a dupe.

Oh BTW, document the so-called dirty tricks, who did them and what named sources can prove who did them. Or did CNN not give you all those details.

What a dope you are.

161 posted on 01/02/2006 10:51:13 AM PST by FreeReign
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To: muir_redwoods
How different is that from "To each according to his needs and from each according to his ability"?

In every possible way.
162 posted on 01/02/2006 10:57:55 AM PST by ARCADIA (Abuse of power comes as no surprise)
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To: SwankyC
"I always had the impression that was blue collar lower class stuff"

SwankyC, that was always my impression too. What's happened to the good Americans that used to post here? Almost every post I read is from a Bush Hating, America Hating lefty!
163 posted on 01/02/2006 10:58:26 AM PST by JLGALT
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To: Paul Ross
This is highly skilled in most manufacturing, and requires a deeper understanding of things than you seem to appreciate.

How long does it take from the moment one is hired till one has reached this "highly skilled" level you are claiming is needed? How is it that that unionized plants like GM are producing a lower quality vehicle than plants in other parts of the US which have non-unionized, lower paid workers. The problem with Union's such as the auto workers is that their pay is not based on skill or demand, it is based on the ability of the Union to force a salary increase. In the days when the American Auto manufacturers had a monopoly on car sales it was easier to give in to the union and raise the price of cars, than to hold the line. The American Auto industry is now facing the consequences of that behavior. What the Auto workers make is not based on actual skill, but on the fact they are unionized.

164 posted on 01/02/2006 11:02:13 AM PST by Casloy
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To: muir_redwoods

"That's just tough luck for the overpriced worker. The criminal conspiracies known as labor unions now have exactly what they've been working for for the past 70 years at least."

And remember that unions are very profitable for the Mafia!


165 posted on 01/02/2006 11:02:39 AM PST by JLGALT
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To: daviddennis
It's not treason to try and get the best value for your money.

It is when doing so undermines your countrymen. That's kindof obvious, isn't it.. I mean, it goes without saying that selling secrets isn't treason either, until it extends to subversive activity, then you can hang for it. Amazing how that works isn't it. And the American public can be pretty fickle about treason. Some they imprison, some they deport, some they hang, shoot or even electrocute.. Gee, I rhymed.

Gee, I shop at Kroger for my Groceries, or at the local discount market that sells (gasp) american products. Is there some unwritten rule that people must shop at Walmart?

As for knowing my next argument... No, you didn't. I would have overlooked your references to social diseases as tangential non-issues. Which is what I'm about to do now, btw.

Getting good value for your money is fine. And it amazes me that such an argument is even brought up - largely because it isn't an argument. It's a soundbite. And a hollow one at that. It's a human thing to get the best price one can. It's just common sense everywhere but in the treason lobby that one doesn't sell out one's family, friends and neighbors to do so. That would be the morality thing kicking in again, something I'm aware challenges you to understand. Call it loyalty - you might come closer to understanding that concept. Betraying a loyalty is bad. You might say it in terms of being 'a device harmful to one's standing for murky reaons.' You know, a kind of treason.. lol

166 posted on 01/02/2006 11:03:16 AM PST by Havoc (President George and King George.. coincidence?)
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To: rbg81

Where I live $9/hr is not even survival. It would be just the pay for 1 of several jobs I would have to get. Gov't likes importing...they can charge for import taxes, duties, etc. It makes them more powerful so that they can use their power to regulate american manufacturing out of existence.


167 posted on 01/02/2006 11:05:30 AM PST by virgil
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To: USS Alaska

"More work, less whining."

Only four words but it says more than a book!


168 posted on 01/02/2006 11:05:34 AM PST by JLGALT
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To: muir_redwoods
It's called free enterprise.

Free enterprise is for cocain dealers. Capitalism relies on a well regulated free market. You can exchange and profit from your investment so long as you operate by the rules; and those rules are subject to political winds. The rules are intened to protect the country, its property, and its people. If that is too much for your free wheeling style of globalist industrialism then by all means pack up and head for Colombia.
169 posted on 01/02/2006 11:10:08 AM PST by ARCADIA (Abuse of power comes as no surprise)
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To: muir_redwoods
"I have a conscience. It tells me that I should not ask another for my support. I accept the risks of freedom. When I can't compete with anyone who chooses to challenge my place in the market, I am done. No crying to my government or a labor union or my employer for help. I am on my own in this world and I accept that with maturity and honesty. That's what my conscience tells me."

You sir are a great real American. I salute you!
170 posted on 01/02/2006 11:11:27 AM PST by JLGALT
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To: muir_redwoods
I have a conscience. It tells me that I should not ask another for my support. I accept the risks of freedom. When I can't compete with anyone who chooses to challenge my place in the market, I am done. No crying to my government

Good, I'll be right over to hog tie you, prostrate you on the ground with 200 pounds on your back and then race you 100 yards for everything you own. If you can't compete, no fair whining about it. Oops, didn't say anything about fairness or a level playing field did we.. how obtuse of you. lost that one. wanna just mail me my winnings, or are you going to put up a fight now that you'll want to specify a fair fight...

..And you almost looked like you were making sense for a moment. Almost. Or is your conscience still telling you, stupidly, you were beaten, just mail him the stuff. If so, you need a transplant and psychiatric help. Fairness, is what tariffs bring - a balancing of the playing field so that .37 cent wages can't undermine our economy. Tariffs make .37 cents an hour into 5.53 an hour or higher depending on the competing interest in the field so that you aren't being undercut and the better product wins on an even playing field instead of a rigged field. This is pretty basic stuff that sheep understand. How is it that intellectual superiors are so ignorant of it as to look foolish?

171 posted on 01/02/2006 11:13:49 AM PST by Havoc (President George and King George.. coincidence?)
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To: Havoc

Sometimes there are people on FR (and Fox News too) who work hard to put lipstick on a pig.


172 posted on 01/02/2006 11:19:26 AM PST by virgil
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To: Havoc
We're also an armed society - which is why a lot of folks have thought twice about invading us and which is likely why the dems want us disarmed and the rinos would prefer to help them. An armed public can be an unknown quantity and tough to plan for if one intends to do things that might incite them to revolt..

Which is why the Second Amendment has to be abolished. Confiscation cannot occur unless there is no constitutional safeguard against its happening. The abolition of the Second Amendment will also set a cultural precedent that will make confiscation more palatable to those more inclined to by the government lie of a globalist, market-based utopia.

Don't be surprised if this doesn't happen under a Republican administration. Those most likely to pull the plug on private ownership of firearms could very well be those who campaigned most stringently in its favor.

I would caution you, however. 200 million guns in the hands of 80 million armed citizens, or however those numbers play out, does not an army make.

173 posted on 01/02/2006 11:22:44 AM PST by Euro-American Scum (A poverty-stricken middle class must be a disarmed middle class)
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To: freedumb2003
You only get that because their cost of living is lower. They aren't that much better than local talent and that's my experience. They may be good; but, they aren't that good. I'd even argue that they aren't any better because they aren't. The only thing that makes them of value to anyone is they're comparable and cheaper. Use tariffs to balance the field as they are meant to and it's amazing how dumb and how big a waste of time it suddenly is to hire Chinese coders. It's so blatent that nobody did it before recent times because it really wasn't cost effective. Cost effective = money is the primary concern. Amazing how most of you can talk in terms of money; but narry a one of you has any notion of propriety and what's good for your coutry and fellow countrymen. And, no, I'm not the equivelant of an IT bolt tightener. Nor are coders. Coding takes substantial thought to do properly else you get the shlock that Microsoft puts out and thinks the best since peanut butter. The reality is that Wordperfect did it better; but, MS did it cheaper and now everyone is stuck suffering with the result of doing it cheaper and the better no longer exists. Over what? Money. If the better value for the money is getting it done right without hassle and extra expense, Wordperfect was the right solution. MS was cheaper till Wordperfect disappeared, now it costs about the same and arrives with hassle and expense. But it, at least, was local competition. And there was a difference in coding - MS did it halfway and now we're paying the price for it in spades. Same thing happens in china.. they produce the goods for a fraction of the price in labor and send us a product that is fractionally as good. So rather than buying once and keeping it for ten years, we buy at a fraction of the price and have to buy one a year just to have something fuctional because it breaks... That's the common story. The worst case is obviously, well, worse. rofl

Personally, you may be in high demand. That doesn't protect your position. The moment someone in China comes available, you will be expendable no matter how valuable you think your position is. It means nothing. You have no future and no right to your job, no expectation toward security - isn't that the treason lobby mantra... Who do you think you're kidding! That isn't a question. I watched irreplaceable people get replaced in droves. You are nothing special and are deluding yourself no matter what your area of expertise. The only people that aren't expendable are the ones at the head of the organization. And that won't last long if the chinese realize that the executives are costing the state too much.. If you think little guys are bolt turners and you aren't, you've got some learning to do. My job required problem solving skills and technical knowledge that not everyone has. I've talked to college grads who don't understand how windows really works but have it degrees. Theory and practical experience are a world apart. But so are American and Chinese workers, and that doesn't stop anyone from replacing you with a Chinese worker who knows the theory at .37 an hour. Wake up. You are a throwaway in denial in the face of your own arguments. If you're gonna parade the beast around as harmless, you best kiss it, cause it's got you too.

174 posted on 01/02/2006 11:34:29 AM PST by Havoc (President George and King George.. coincidence?)
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To: FreeReign

You aren't too bright are you. Did you bother to look at the actual circumstance you just rattled off, or are you merely paraphrasing a timeline you saw somewhere.


175 posted on 01/02/2006 11:36:25 AM PST by Havoc (President George and King George.. coincidence?)
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To: Casloy
How long does it take from the moment one is hired till one has reached this "highly skilled" level you are claiming is needed?

That depends entirely on the industry and areas of production. As one example, consider how skilled machinists can take a quite varied path:

 
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  The Business Journal Online    MidApril 2000

Good Machinists Have Inquiring Minds

Machinist Glen Beatty applies skill, and experience machining precision parts at Mills Machine Co., Warren. Photo: Grantonic Studio  
Part engineer, part inventor, part metallurgist and part artist.

By Dan O'Brien

Jim Hazenstab pauses a moment before answering what led him to become a machinist: He always had intense curiosity about how machines worked. His route to becoming a machinist, though, was tougher than most.

Diagnosed with attention deficit disorder (ADD) at an early age, Hazenstab says most of his teachers couldn't see his academic ability as they wrote off his enthusiasm for tinkering with machines.

"I was a classic case," says Hazenstab, now the president of Hazenstab Machine Inc., Salem. "I graduated high school with a 2.3 grade point average, but my IQ was 140."

It wasn't until his senior year in high school that Hazenstab enrolled in courses that directly applied to the life of a machinist ­ his father's chosen trade. "In my senior year, I was taking subjects I liked. I could understand the applications of trigonometry, chemistry and calculus because by that time I was practicing it," he recalls.

All are important to understanding the fundamentals of the machinist trade, Hazenstab says. He was introduced to machining at age 12 by his father. By eighth grade, Hazenstab says, he was showing some of his shop teachers how to repair equipment.

In 1977, the elder Hazenstab founded the company in Ellsworth, which machined parts mainly for the region's steel mills. "When the mills closed, business dropped off. By 1980, I was partners with my dad and was the only one in the shop. I don't think I was paid between 1980 and 1985," he says.

Today business is much improved as his company machines components for a diverse range of customers in the electrical, steel and aluminum industries.

While dollars were scarce, the experience proved invaluable, Hazenstab says.

Although a vocational education may be a useful starting point for a machinist, many new graduates, fearing ridicule, won't ask questions. This, in many cases, is what separates good machinists from mediocre ones, he says. "My father used to say that there's only one stupid question, and that's the one you don't ask," Hazenstab remarks. "You have to want to learn this trade and have a basic desire to understand how things work."

In addition to a vocational and technical education, Hazenstab says it usually takes between three and five years of on-the-job training until machinists fully master their craft. "You need creative talent, mechanical ability and a desire to make something," he says.

Hazenstab Machine, which employs 18, has the capability of mass producing small machined parts through its computer numerically controlled (CNC) operations and prototype parts with the company's traditional lathes, grinders and mills, he says.

On many occasions, trial and error is the best teacher when it comes to machining a part to perfection, Hazenstab says.

One such project involved a prototype for General Electric Co., he recalls. "We developed several models before the part was right."

The company worked in tandem with a GE engineer and the prototype took almost four years to complete. Ultimately, the component became an integral piece of GE's mass-production line for pressure-sodium light bulbs, he says.

A good machinist learns from mistakes ­ often his own, Hazenstab notes, and experience gradually helps improve the quality and speed of the work. "My dad used to say, 'If you're not making scrap, then you're not a good machinist.' You need to envision the part in your mind, figure out how it will work and then build it," he says.

Despite the introduction of CNC equipment and other technological advances in the industry, machining is nevertheless an art form that depends heavily on individual talent, says Glen Beatty, a machinist at Mills Machine Co., Warren.

Beatty, who entered the trade in 1972, says he's qualified to operate CNC machines but prefers to work with manual equipment such as grinders, lathes and mills. Since the company works strictly with close-tolerance prototypes and doesn't machine parts in quantity, CNC technology is not required at the shop. "We work with real close dimensions, and this takes an extreme amount of patience," he says. "There are things we've had to repair because they weren't done right the first time through a CNC machine."

If he's working from an engineer's print, Beatty says he can probably make just about anything a customer wants.

Therefore, today's machinist must maintain a high level of professional expertise, says Tom Rasey, Mills Machine's shop supervisor. "There's a big difference between someone who strictly runs a CNC machine and one who operates a manual machine. A lot of the guys coming out of school now are not taught the same skills as 20 years ago."

A superior machinist, Rasey adds, is part engineer, part artist, part metallurgist and part inventor. "It goes beyond a skill. There's a certain gift to it."

All these talents come into play when working on complex and sophisticated projects, Rasey notes. He points to a prototype part the company machined and built from scratch for a cutting line at Delphi Packard Electric Systems in Warren. In such cases, Mills Machine usually works with a Delphi engineer. Together they will decide on changes or improvements to the component. "When we get it done, we send them the model part and they'll build their own," he says.

Such demands, however, make it increasingly difficult to find qualified employees in an extremely tight labor market, Rasey says. Most of the five employees at Mills Machine work part time, and many of them are retired machinists who devoted much their lives to the trade.

"We've got some of the best machinists in the area working for us. There are a lot of people who call themselves machinists, but some don't even know how to turn on a machine," he states.

Although employed by the industry since the 1970s, Beatty says it wasn't until 1990 that he earned the status of journeyman machinist, a classification conferred only when the worker has logged his requisite number of classroom and machine hours. "To become a journeyman machinist, it takes 144 hours of classroom time and 8,000 hours' machine time. It took me about four years," he elaborates.

During such a program, a machinist's skill is monitored on just about every piece of equipment, including lathes, boring mills, drills, threaders and CNC mills. "Journeyman papers are as good as a college education," he says.

Beatty adds he would have received his certification earlier except that the company he started with in the '70s didn't sponsor a journeyman program.

Shop supervisor Rasey, who performs all the assembly work on the company's prototypes, says the average salary for a journeyman machinist is $15 an hour. "There's decent money to be made. It's one of the last skilled craftsman positions out there," he states.


©2000 Youngstown Publishing Company. All rights reserved.

Youngstown Publishing Co
PO Box 714
Youngstown, OH 44501
  800/837-NEWS
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330/744-5838 fax


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176 posted on 01/02/2006 11:38:26 AM PST by Paul Ross (My idea of American policy toward the Soviet Union is simple...It is this, 'We win and they lose.')
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To: virgil
Yep. They work awful hard at it hoping nobody will notice it's a pig. They even trott it out and it can't help but squeal; but, they keep advising us, "it's 100% grain fed beef" "oink oink oink" *swat* "shhhhhhh. We call her bessy.. see the nice cow bell." "oink oink oink" Sean: That looks like a.. Colmes: Do cows always have pink skin and curly tails and go oink? Sean: Prozac, I need prozac.. O'Reily (sneaking in): Who let the pig in here Treason Lobby: Cow! D@*nit! It's a cow. Don't you listen to the mean man, bessy. Sean: Can I have some water with this? Colmes: Sean, I may be stupid; but, it doesn't seem to look like a cow. Don't know quite what it is; but, it isn't a cow. Sean: Ok, this is an alternate universe if Alan's getting this... Treason Lobby: *pointing* Cow bell, see. O'Reily (sneaking out - eyes rolling) Where's Coulter when you need her...
177 posted on 01/02/2006 11:43:57 AM PST by Havoc (President George and King George.. coincidence?)
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To: daviddennis
"
People forget that the folks who are competing with us are real people, just like we are. They're not robots from the planet Zong. They're human too. Would I be better off hiring someone who would be really thankful for a job, any job, than a spoiled ungrateful American? "

I feel that ONE American is (or should be) more important, in terms of the utilization of the resources of state and federal governments and the concomitant laws made and enforced, than the entire $%@#$ Philippines, or China.

Anyone who would NOT put the safety, even luxury, of a fellow citizen before any of the concerns of those living in or running some other nation deserve the noose. Bismark stated "the entire Balkans is not worth the bones of a single Pomeranian grenadier"; we would do well to think likewise. I wouldn't sacrifice a single American job, even if incompetently performed by an ungrateful, lazy, Democrat voting rap listening thug, if it meant the survival or perishing of an entire province in China.
178 posted on 01/02/2006 11:47:18 AM PST by RedStateRocker
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To: muir_redwoods
I have a conscience.

Have you read Samuel Johnson's, The Patriot?

179 posted on 01/02/2006 11:49:19 AM PST by Paul Ross (My idea of American policy toward the Soviet Union is simple...It is this, 'We win and they lose.')
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To: Euro-American Scum
I would caution you, however. 200 million guns in the hands of 80 million armed citizens, or however those numbers play out, does not an army make.

Maybe not; but, it makes a lot of Buttholes and elbows gettin away from it. I'm not military; but, I can bulseye a still target dead center at 100yds with a .44 bulldog. I can bullseye a moving target at the same distance with the same gun repeatedly. And it's a tough weapon for me to control. I didn't grow up with a gun in my hands, I'm just a natural at it. And to be honest, there isn't much to aiming and firing a weapon. So, it isn't rocket science and anyone can do it. What makes an army is simple, injustice and determination. Our founders are proof of that.

180 posted on 01/02/2006 11:49:42 AM PST by Havoc (President George and King George.. coincidence?)
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