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To: Right Wing Professor
we have renewed attempts to establish Ten Commandments monuments on public property

What we have are renewed (largely successful) efforts to take them down from public property. It was only in the last few decades that the court decided they were unconstitutional, and we weren't in any kind of danger of sliding into theocratical tyranny prior to then. And not only have the secularists managed to take down the Decalogue, but also things that are only tangentially related to religion, such as the inconspicuous cross on the Los Angeles seal (while leaving a much larger pagan symbol on the same seal untouched). That's the real trend, and it shows few signs of subsiding.

we have state funding of religious organizations

Actually we have non-discrimination as to who receives funds for purely secular purposes. Interestingly enough, there are a lot of religious conservatives who are nervous about this trend, because of the danger of secularizing these religious organizations that become dependent on the government spigot.

Where there is an strong and active fundamentalist movement, the universal experience has been that democracy leads to imposition of religious control of public life. This is evident in Turkey, in Algeria, and elsewhere in the Islamic world; it happened in England in the 17th century

England in the 17th century wasn't terribly democratic by our standards, and it definitely wasn't uncensored. If you were an Englishman then, the Church of England was your religion - or else. My whole point is that censorship can lead to fanaticism by giving people a persecution complex.

Turkey is an even closer example of my point. That country has a strict secularist government, with a military establishment that considers itself constitutionally bound to enforce secularism. Religion-based parties are outlawed, and religious schools have to submit to heavy oversight. There are prohibitions against overtly religious garb in public, including headscarves for women, and even fezzes for men. On top of which, it's politically restrictive. Excessive criticism of the government is heavily frowned upon, at the least. Under those conditions, radical religion becomes the only vehicle with the staying power to challenge the establishment.

to a limited extent it's happening in Europe now, where Islamic-dominated areas are allowed a lot of latitude by civil authorities in imposing Islamic customs.

Yes, quite true, and it's almost the direct result of decades-long efforts in those countries to drive Christianity from the public square. Similar trends are beginning to happen here, and if you ask me, that's something that you (and especially your Jewish friends) would have far greater cause for concern about than about Christians doing something that Christianity has completely outgrown.

267 posted on 01/05/2006 1:38:16 PM PST by inquest (If you favor any legal status for illegal aliens, then do not claim to be in favor of secure borders)
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To: inquest
What we have are renewed (largely successful) efforts to take them down from public property.

Tell that to Roy Moore.

Actually we have non-discrimination as to who receives funds for purely secular purposes.

Yeah, right. Money is fungible.

Turkey is an even closer example of my point. That country has a strict secularist government, with a military establishment that considers itself constitutionally bound to enforce secularism. Religion-based parties are outlawed, and religious schools have to submit to heavy oversight. There are prohibitions against overtly religious garb in public, including headscarves for women, and even fezzes for men. On top of which, it's politically restrictive. Excessive criticism of the government is heavily frowned upon, at the least. Under those conditions, radical religion becomes the only vehicle with the staying power to challenge the establishment.

Exactly backwards. Turkey is the only one that has withstood - somewhat - fundamentalist pressure. Algeria and Pakistan became dictatorships under threats from fundamentalists; Egypt is close to a dictatorship. Saudi Arabia and Iran are theocracies. And the US won't push most of them towards democracy because we know that if they do, fundamentalists will take over.

Yes, quite true, and it's almost the direct result of decades-long efforts in those countries to drive Christianity from the public square

No, it's a result of allowing influx of a religious minority who don't accept the Western ideal of a secular, tolerant democracy. Ireland doesn't have a problem, right now. Why? Because Ireland doesn't have a substantial population of Muslims.

Many European countries were secularized long before the Muslims arrived. And they had no problem.

268 posted on 01/05/2006 2:08:45 PM PST by Right Wing Professor (Liberals have hijacked science for long enough. Now it's our turn -- Tom Bethell)
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