Though we disagree about many things, I think we share some common ground here. And I do apologize for some of my words earlier, I just get very worked up about this topic. I also thank you for acknowledging that I do not post any xenophobic comments.
As far as where we disagree, I do believe that foreign workers, in some cases, are beneficial to the economy here. I am in favor of a tightly enforced TEMPORARY worker program. I can understand why many people here are against, or at the very least skeptical of this type of program. I myself am a bit skeptical, because I question whether it will actually be enforced. I am 100% against the McCain/Kennedy, but, atleast in theory, somewhat supportive of the Kyl/Cornyn Bill, it it were truly enforced. I, like many if not most others, am very confused about which bill, if either, the President supports. If he supports a TEMPORARY guestworker program that pays reasonable wages to foreign workers when no Americans are willing or able to do the job, and the plan does not entail a path to citizenship as McKennedy does, I will support his efforts wholeheartedly.
As to where we are in agreement, I too support a fence and tougher enforcement. I am not in favor of forcing businesses into bankruptcy with fines at this moment because they hire illegals. That would be unfair. I do not, however, believe it would be unfair to do so if we started enforcing employer sanctions consistently and nationally. The market forces wwould then take care of themselves. And if these businesses could truly not find American workers, I would support their wishes to find temporary workers. I also do not dispute that many of these people are good people. Indeed many are very hard workers, and men and women of great faith. I respect that. What often turns me off to their plight is the work of groups like MALDEF and La Raza who clearly have ulterior motives, that are often based in racial superiority and political opportunism. I would be much less cynical and resentful if these groups were not the way they are.
I will also tell you one of the reasons I do not support a path to citizenship for illegals. We need to get at the root of this problem, and the problem lies in Latin American countries(primarily Mexico). It is my opinion that we should do all we can to make life better economically, politically, and socially in these nations, rather then importing the population here. By creating a temporary worker program, we can allow for people to come here and gain valuable skills, and at the same time be able to send more money back home, because they would be making better wages. If we just allow them to become citizens here, it will not help solve the core problem here. I truly believe a TEMPORARY worker program is in the best interests of everybody involved.
It is also hard for me to accept the idea of gangs in this country, many made up of illegal immigrants, reaking so much havoc on the streets and in the towns of this nation. If I were a politician, I would find it very hard to explain to a family why their son or daughter was killed by an illegal alien who had been deported nine times previously.
Furthermore, there are political ramifications to consider. I have seen many polls that show that almost 50% of Hispanics favor tougher enforcement. More than that, vast majorities of African Americans, Whites, and legal immigrants support it as well. If framed correctly, I also think tougher enforcement combined with a truly TEMPORARY worker program would be of great benefit socially, economically, and politically.
These second-class citizens will be agitating for full citizenship two seconds after this program goes into effect. And what about the babies? Is a woman supposed to leave the country after she gets pregnant.
This is how empires fail. They get lazy and take advantage of cheap foreign labor.
As far as where we disagree, I do believe that foreign workers, in some cases, are beneficial to the economy here.
So far we sing in perfect harmony
I am in favor of a tightly enforced TEMPORARY worker program. I can understand why many people here are against, or at the very least skeptical of this type of program. I myself am a bit skeptical, because I question whether it will actually be enforced. I am 100% against the McCain/Kennedy, but, atleast in theory, somewhat supportive of the Kyl/Cornyn Bill, it it were truly enforced. I, like many if not most others, am very confused about which bill, if either, the President supports.
To be honest, I know little of either bill. Nor do I know what the pres supports. I think most people want to see the flow of illegals stopped. I think that most people want to see the legal flow of aliens better supervised. I think most people want to see the people who are here already accounted for. I think that most people want the criminal elements among the illegals deported, with no possibility of return. These are all elements I can join in with anyone from whatever agenda they have.
If he supports a TEMPORARY guestworker program that pays reasonable wages to foreign workers when no Americans are willing or able to do the job, and the plan does not entail a path to citizenship as McKennedy does, I will support his efforts wholeheartedly.
It is interesting that during the years before our attempts to limit immigration, that immigrants from Mexico were offset by those who voluntarily returned, having made the money they needed and left. That corresponds with the normal inclinations of most Latinos who come here to do manual labor. They almost uniformly have no desire to stay. Moreover, federal law (passed in 1952) specifically forbade prosecuting ANY employer for hiring an undocumented worker. This made for a defacto "guest worker" program, where workers entered, made the money they needed to send back to Carmelita, and then left to enjoy both Carmelita and the money they had sent her. Workers rotated in and out, but there was no significant net gain, according to census records. Certainly nothing like the hordes we have now. Further complicating this situation, 40 percent of illegals (not just illegal mexicans) are not here because they are border hoppers, but b/c they overstayed their visas. That means a good guest worker program has to be either 1)"loose" enough to de-incentivize overstaying (why overstay if you are relatively sure you can get back in?) 2) VERY tightly controlled, thru some type of federal oversight over employers (which I am TOTALLY against! they have too much power now. i don't want to give them more) or 3) extremely curtailed, which would create real problems (I believe), especially for the labor markets in the border states.
I suppose you can see my prejudices from the way I present the above, but I really believe they are informed prejudices, and not just arbitrary.
I would only like to add that a temp guest worker program should be strengthened by the passage of some nationalized version of Prop 200, that forbids ALL federal benefits for ALL non citizens.
If I got everything I liked out of a program like this (I won't) I would put everyone who is here illegally on a guest worker program, contingent on paying back taxes, a hefty fine (even heftier if they want to get on a track for citizenship), proof that no illegal activity has gone down other than the stuff to get across the border and live here, and a clean bill of health. Part of the requirements for ANY alien who seeks citizenship should be the demand that no federal or state assistance is sought.
Many freepers do not realize that if we played this right, we could use the argument that hispanics and asians come here and PROSPER with no fed assistance, thereby giving legitimacy to arguments for dismanteling the whole welfare state.