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To: jbloedow
Um, where's the "program" in the case of evolution?

I didn't ask, but I could have - where is the "program" in the case of the origin of computer chips? Seems to me that this "program" analogy is being spread paper thin. However if life can be said to be following a "program" then evolution is following the same program plus some additional rules of nature (eg that tautology of "survival of the fittest"). Afterall evolution is simply a consequence of life replicating imperfectly and the better imperfects tending to be selected. If life doesn't violate the 2nd law then I don't see how evolution could.

Also, can you evos clarify something for me: if I, say, take some OJ and cranbery juice and pour both of them together in a glass and stir it for a while and stop and then I notice that the OJ and CJ are perfectly separated, that would also not be a violation of the second law, right, on a pure energy basis?

If it is possible that can happen then I am sure it wouldn't be a violation as nothing is known that violates the 2nd law.

But would it be a violation of the laws of entropy? Is there only one kind of entropy? Is there a single well accepted definition?

As far as I gather entropy is a complex term and has multiple definitions which are often mixed in a confusing way. For example entropy is a term in thermodynamics and unfortunately it is also a term in information theory meaning a quite different thing. That is a recipe for disaster in this debate where information and disorder crop up. I only use entropy in relation to disorder.

One more question: can you give me any example of observed natural processes which result in arrangements of matter of both long-term higher potential energy and statistical complexity with no guiding program or blueprint?

I do not know what potential energy or statistical complexity are so I cannot.

728 posted on 12/29/2005 6:09:36 PM PST by bobdsmith
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To: bobdsmith
For example entropy is a term in thermodynamics and unfortunately it is also a term in information theory meaning a quite different thing.

Not true. Entropy in physics is nothing more than a special case of entropy in mathematics.

In fact, the last chapter of Li and Vitanyi (the de facto reference text for information theory) is dedicated to showing how entropy and complexity in the physical sciences is derivable from the general mathematics version.

The relationship is not obvious in older Shannon information theory, which dealt primarily with zero-order information, but the broader field of modern algorithmic information theory (Solomonoff and later) very neatly maps complex physical systems into the mathematics.

755 posted on 12/29/2005 10:16:46 PM PST by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
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