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To: js1138; Right Wing Professor

The creation of DNA seems to violate the 2nd LoT, as it relates to information entropy.

Whatever system created DNA is required to have more information (lower entropy) than the DNA itself. Diffusion of information must occur. The resulting system must be "less informed", so to speak. The DNA would have to be a dispersion or diffusion of the proto-DNA.

No such proto-DNA has yet been discovered.

Nor has an encoding, or evolutionary-type, process been discovered that would allow the creation of properly coded DNA to be formed in an open system in which energy/field forces were available to "drive" the amino acids into proper configuration, or to allow the selection of the "correct" string after being randomly assembled in the soup.

In the case of a living being the evolutionary criteria needed to perform the natural selection process are self-contained within the organism, within the DNA. There are (theoretically) no external systems making the determination of which mutation should live or die. The criteria for life to exist are encoded in the DNA.

But DNA cannot carry the criteria for the existence of DNA before it is created! So who has that criteria?

Why should long-chain polymers floating in a puddle decide they need to reproduce?

Why would these moelcules have a "need" to convert sunlight or other energy sources into stored energy to be used later to reproduce new even more complex molecules? over and over and over...

Why should these happy little molecules have any desire to live at all? (life can be so depressing, I'm sure, but still...)

Why should any molecules care to live at all? Whats the point?

;^)


1,461 posted on 01/12/2006 11:46:50 AM PST by Mark Felton ("Your faith should not be in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.")
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To: Mark Felton
the 2nd LoT, as it relates to information entropy.

The second law of thermodynamics does not apply to informational entropy. It's a law of thermodynamics, not information science.

1,464 posted on 01/12/2006 12:11:32 PM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: Mark Felton

DNA is pretty much a crystal. Both DNA and RNA have crystaline forms that preserve all of the so-called information. What law of thermodynamics is violated by the formation of a crystal?


1,466 posted on 01/12/2006 12:27:03 PM PST by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: Mark Felton
"The creation of DNA seems to violate the 2nd LoT, as it relates to information entropy. "

It seems to, because you don't know what entropy is and neither do you understand information theory. Information theory is not thermodynamics.

"Whatever system created DNA is required to have more information (lower entropy) than the DNA itself."

Information is not entropy. The information theory entropy before the reaction is Hbefore. After the reaction it's Hafter. The information after the reaction is R,

R=Hbefore - Hafter.

Notice before the reaction the informaitonal entropy was large, not small and was reduced after the reaciton. R, the information, is less after the reation.

This reaction is not driven by information though. It's driven by energy and thermodynamics applies. The energy comes from the heat of reaction. Here's a link that notes the difference and contains a link to relevant applied info theory(Schneider). In my post I note Schneider's failure to grasp thermodynamics with his example of a copper penny flip. That's very important to note, because information theory generally must and does ignore background to focus on particular relevant aspects. It also must invoke informational entropy when the real entropy doesn't change during a reaction, or is hidden in the background as I noted with the penny flip. His Emin calc is good.

"Why should long-chain polymers floating in a puddle decide they need to reproduce? "

They don't decide anything. It happens, because it can. IOWs the laws of physics and the system components allow it.

"Why should any molecules care to live at all? Whats the point?

Molecules don't have will. They follow the physics. Systems of molecules that comprise sentient, intellegent machines have will. They aquire/create and decide their own reasons.

1,467 posted on 01/12/2006 12:47:52 PM PST by spunkets
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To: Mark Felton
"The resulting system must be "less informed", so to speak. The DNA would have to be a dispersion or diffusion of the proto-DNA. No such proto-DNA has yet been discovered. "

Here's another misconception. there is no such thing as proto DNA. All chemical reactions follow thermodynamics, not information theory. All DNA and the reactions it's involved in are equivalent, regardless of sequence. The idea that any particular sequence is thermodynamically different, allowing one to tag it as special is ridiculous.

1,468 posted on 01/12/2006 12:56:08 PM PST by spunkets
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