Posted on 12/22/2005 2:58:23 PM PST by cll
Puerto Rico PING!
Cut to the chase here, please. Do they continue to get more money as a Territory or start pulling their own weight as a state. I'd rather see them as a state.
Not unless we get to balance them out by acquiring the Western Canadian provinces. Remember that statehood confers them with 2 U.S. Senators plus some representatives in the House.
Again, I have not seen the document itself, but the significance of this is that for the first time in 107 years in general, and since the 1952 PR Constitution in particular, the Executive of the Federal Government has acknowledged:
1. That the United States of America maintains a colonial relationship with Puerto Rico, in the form of a territory under the plenary powers of the U.S. Congress under the territorial clause of the U.S. Constitution.
2. That the current political status of Puerto Rico and that four million American citizens in that territory are subject to the whims of Congress, making the United States of America lord and sovereign over a people that practically have no say over it.
3. The Executive has no authority over the final disposition of the issue, and defers to the sovereign over Puerto Rico, the Congress of the United States of America, to deal with the issue. This is legally true under the Treaty of Paris of 1898, which ceded Puerto Rico to the U.S. after the Spanish-American War.
4. And most important of all, it sentences that the "enhanced Commonwealth" aspirations of the status-quo supporters are un-constitutional and not negotiable. Therefore, that the only options are Statehood or independence. Since less than 5% of the people of Puerto Rico desires independence from the U.S., our great nation must get ready to admit its 51st State.
To answer your question, yes, to pull our own weight. Not that we haven't, but yes, in equal terms with the other 50.
That Puerto Rico would be a democrat state is mere speculation. You cannot anticipate actual Puerto Rico's voting trends based on voting trends on some mainland so-called Puerto Rican communities. In fact, it has been reported in more places than one that "Hispanics" carried Bush-Cheney in the last election, particulary in the I-4 corridor of Florida, which counts with a large conservative Puerto Rican population, as opposed to the liberal/democrat "Puerto Rican" communities of the north east.
I'll bet you a case of rum that the actual Puerto Rico, not to be confused with East Harlem, would be a Republican state. Just with its large Catholic or Evangelical Christian population, and its small business/entrepeneur-dominated economy it would be easy for the GOP to secure a strong base here.
The money we dole out to them as a territory is nothing compared to what they would cost us as a state. Three-fourths of the whole island would be eligible for welfare handouts of one kind or another because of their low income overall. How do you explain the concept of property tax and school tax to people who have never paid either? You know how much most of us here in the States hate to pay to live on the land we already bought and paid for. Besides, we cant afford to feed another 2 million mouths.
Thanks cll
"It will be a great day to have Puerto Rico as our 51st state!"
Thank you! It will be an honor to join you at the table of Freedom as an equal and to continue fighting for not just the survival, but for the success of the Republic!
"How do you explain the concept of property tax and school tax to people who have never paid either?"
Excuse me, my fellow American. That Puerto Rico is a tax-free heaven is just another myth.
To start with, the only tax from which taxpayers in Puerto Rico are exempt from is that on IRC section 933 income. Pretty soon here a troll named 4Freedom is going to raise the issue of IRC S. 936 companies or Controlled Foreign Corporations. These tax shelters have been in the process of being faced out for the last ten years. At the sound of midnight this coming 12/31, they will cease to exist altogether.
Puerto Rico taxpayers, employees and employers, pay FEDERAL Social Security taxes at the same rate as those on the mainland, but the return on those taxes are capped by Congress below mainland levels.
Puerto Rico employers pay into FUTA or federal unemployment tax at the same rate as those on the mainland, again, for only a fraction of the return as compared with mainland employers.
All property owners in Puerto Rico pay property taxes. We pay on real estate, we pay on inventory.
All businesses pay a tax on their gross sales to the municipalities, after paying an income tax to the "state".
Other than no personal federal income tax, the only advantages here is that there is no death tax or estate tax.
And, again, the federal personal income tax exemption extends only to SOME Puerto Rico-generated income. And that income is taxed to the jing-jang by the local government. 35% in my case.
I would swear that we had this exact same conversation almost a year ago to the date. How often does the subject of the status vote come up? It can't be every year.
It is my belief that Puerto Ricans favor territorial status over statehood maybe 55%-45%, maybe 60-40. There are a few percent of academics that claim to favor independence, but I think they are posers, in actual fact almost no one favors any kind of independence that would involve giving up their US citizenship.
Which is why I picked up on the "free association" part of the discussion, as if they were trying to come up with some kind of mechanism by which it was an option to claim "independence" while retaining US citizenship. What that would look like, how that would differ from the present arrangement, is not clear to me.
"Free association" to me sounds like a con, a way of easing them out the door, and should be rejected unless they remain explicitly US citizens, they and their children. Liberians thought they were "sort-of" Americans, but when push came to shove they were not. PR should reject "free association" if their US citizenship is diminished in any way.
Statehood, on the other hand, means that Puerto Rico's "round peg" will be forced into a square hole. They already have the best of both worlds, US protection, US citizenship, without the plain vanilla uniformity that may come with statehood. They are the free-est and most prosperous country in Latin America; I'm not sure why they would want to give that up to be just another state.
But I certainly don't think they aspire to be another Liberia, or Dominican Republic. Thats why some modified version of the status quo is their best bet. US, but uniquely their own.
Just a side note. I don't know how often you get up to the Toro Negro region or the Spine, but theres a few Castro sympathizers up there. What do you think they're up to?
Exactly. In my case my overall tax burder was going to go up. There may be some tax advantages for businesses there (as you say, most of them have been phased out) but for ordinary workers taxes there are not low.
Its worth it, though. Its a nice place to live.
"How often does the subject of the status vote come up? It can't be every year."
This is a perennial problem and it will not go away until the Congress of the U.S.A. lives up to their responsibility under the Treaty of Paris of 1898.
As the wise Justice Harlan stated too long ago:
"In my opinion, Congress has no existence and can exercise no authority outside of the Constitution. Still less is it true that Congress can deal with new territories just as other nations have done or may do with their new territories. This nation is under the control of a written constitution, the supreme law of the land and the only source of the powers which our government, or any branch or officer of it, may exert at any time or at any place. Monarchical and despotic governments, unrestrained by written constitutions, may do with newly acquired territories what this government may not do consistently with our fundamental law. To say otherwise is to concede that Congress may, by action taken outside of the Constitution, engraft upon our republican institutions a colonial system such as exists under monarchical governments. Surely such a result was never contemplated by the fathers of the Constitution. If that instrument had contained a word suggesting the possibility of a result of that character it would never have been adopted by the people of the United States. The idea that this country may acquire territories anywhere upon the earth, by conquest or treaty, and hold them as mere colonies or provinces,—the people inhabiting them to enjoy only such rights as Congress chooses to accord to them,—is wholly inconsistent with the spirit and genius, as well as with the words, of the Constitution." - Justice John Harlan, dissenting in the Insular Cases, 1901
I have it from good authority that die-hard pro-Castro symps, namely the Macheteros, number at less than 1,000 individuals. And I'll be generous, actual pro-independence supporters, as reflected in each general election (http://www.ceepur.org) couldn't even retain their electoral franchise in the 2004 vote, when they mustered less than 3% of the votes cast. These are the outward socialists. I'm not worried about them and you shouldn't be more worried about them than you would of the ANSWER crowd on the mainland.
Cutting to the chase, PR is very poor compared to the median US, it is a different culture, and it's citizens can not vote for the US president.
Do you want them to? Bush would have lost.
Spend some time there...
The only answer I can give you to your appreciation of the problem is Justice Harlan's:
"The idea that this country may acquire territories anywhere upon the earth, by conquest or treaty, and hold them as mere colonies or provinces,—the people inhabiting them to enjoy only such rights as Congress chooses to accord to them,—is wholly inconsistent with the spirit and genius, as well as with the words, of the Constitution." - Justice John Harlan, dissenting in the Insular Cases, 1901
Truly, marron, I appreciate your sympathies and warmth towards us. But it is contradictory to the nature of our Republic to maintain the status quo.
Very warm greetings from the tropical, not-so-far-eastern United States of America.
And Merry Christmas y próspero año nuevo.
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