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The "Ultimate Betrayal"?
National Review Online ^ | December 21, 2005 | W. Thomas Smith, Jr.

Posted on 12/21/2005 5:52:15 AM PST by Moonraker

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To: 2banana
"Just issue everyone a M1A2 Tank and be done with it..." Nope that will not work either. I saw a picture someone posted on a thread back during the war that showed an M1A2 with a hole right through it made with a Russian armored piercing RPG round. No matter what we give the troops some bad guys will get their hands on what they need to try to take it out.
21 posted on 12/21/2005 6:14:32 AM PST by reagandemo (The battle is near are you ready for the sacrifice?)
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To: Moonraker

An entirely new design requires probably at least ten thousand parts that have to be designed for the vehicle.

Takes a little time even after they make up their minds what they want.

If all these guys rode around in the Abrams tank they would still lose people.

The up armored Humvee is probably as good as its going to get. If these Journalists are frightened to ride in them maybe they should stay home.


22 posted on 12/21/2005 6:16:36 AM PST by sgtbono2002
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To: Tahoe3002
FAR exists to perpetuate Waste and Corruption.

The FAR, like the IRS and 60-70% of the federal government, should be trashed and started all over from new blueprints.

I agree. It'll never happen.

The politicians have perfected the ultimate cash cow - "defense spending"

23 posted on 12/21/2005 6:17:38 AM PST by WhiteGuy (Vote for gridlock)
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To: Moonraker
The actual time table for a armored HUMV replacement would go like so:
  1. Four years arguing where in Senator Byrd's state the new BYRD (Bipartisan Yielding Reconissence Device) will be built.
  2. Two years retrofitting BYRD for handicapped access
  3. Eighteen months prooving to RFK Jr. that a solar powered BYRD would not work at night while he battled the wind powered versions.
  4. Sixteen months for DiFi and HRC to approve the makeup mirror to be attached on the sun shades.
  5. Improved 'rear access' will take six months of retro fit thanks to complaints from Barney Frank.
  6. Two years will be lost as designers have to rebut claims from Bill Clinton about how much better it would be with Astotruf in the back.
  7. Eighteen millions dollars would be spent reassuring Jesse Jackson that the new BYRD is not racist in design and giving his relatives the exclusive rights to manufacture special cup holders that will crade 40 ouce malt liquor containters.
  8. And the first eighteen off the assembly line will be bought by John Kerry to be gold plated but will not be own by him but by his family
And that is why it will take so long
24 posted on 12/21/2005 6:17:40 AM PST by pikachu (That which does not kill me just makes me grumpy!)
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Comment #25 Removed by Moderator

To: CondorFlight

You are comparing developing a bazooka with developing a new vehicle that meets existing requirements for speed, handling, manueverability, and range, but also will protect against explosives better than a tank?

In that way, you may well be "with the critics on this one".

We up-armored the humvees really quickly. And it looks like we will have a new vehicle in another year or two.


26 posted on 12/21/2005 6:25:38 AM PST by CharlesWayneCT
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To: pikachu
You forgot...

9. Must be able to "swim" across small tidal inlets, lakes, rivers (and unmarried, drunk secretary; per Sen. Edward "Swimmer" Kennedy :) and other bodies of water. :D

27 posted on 12/21/2005 6:34:59 AM PST by skinkinthegrass (Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get you :^)
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To: CondorFlight
And when the Bradley finally arrived? Congress was aghast at the idea that when struck by a tank main gun round, it frequently exploded.

Now, military R&D has had incredibly stupid moments or should I say monuments to stupidity (can anyone say Spruce Goose, 3x rapidly without smiling), but Congress is to blame for the FAR, much of it directly specified by them, almost always to ensure their district's/state's slice of the pork, which requires endless progress reviews and competition.

If the FAR had existed during WWII, Hitler most likely would have died in his bed a very old man, ruling most of Europe.

28 posted on 12/21/2005 7:32:52 AM PST by DK Zimmerman
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To: Moonraker


Since you posted it, what is your opinion?


29 posted on 12/21/2005 7:37:12 AM PST by airborne
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To: CondorFlight
Sorry, but while I am a dyed-in-the-wool supporter of Bush and the war in Iraq, on this matter I'm with the critics.

Of course, that is your choice. Actually, you hit the nail on the head about the Bradley's design . Part of the problem you addressed is indeed the long lead times, but this is not anything new, again, refe back to the Bradley tmeframe. Add to this the Peace Dividend mentality and the urge to gold plate and you have a gridlock. Some time back in recent memory, our now senior Senator was harping about how she'd been urging the President to buy the V-100's grandson. Of course, this was a stretch of the facts as during Caligula's reign, this self same plant was kept alive only with orders from Saudi Arabia. That particular Senator did not exactly support the plant prior to the 2004 Election cycle. I still say Joe Galloway has hidden behind "We were soldiers.." too long. He is now a part of the problem and he sure as hell is not part of the solution.

30 posted on 12/21/2005 7:45:04 AM PST by gatorbait
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To: CondorFlight
Well, in February 1942 someone came up with the prototype for the bazooka. The first few thousand copies had been manufactured by May 1942. It was so new that troops going to invade N. Africa in November 1942 had never used it, and had to practice with it on shipboard.

I have some specific knowlege on the early bazooka as my grandfather worked on the electrical firing system as an employee at the Philadelphia Arsenal. He contended that the project was FUBAR from the start in that the warhead was never going to be large enough to take out the tanks that the Germans were fielding in North Africa in 1943. So, please, sometime a rush job is a screw-up in the making.

A historical sidenote: the 101st ABN division scavenged all the captured German Panzerfausts they could find because they were demonstrably superior to the bazooka in defeating the side & rear armor of most any tank. The bazooka's lack of lethality wasn't even corrected in time for the Korean War as veterans of Task Force Smith will attest.

As to the up-armored personnel carriers: Armor is not, and never has been, an absolute protection against every threat. If I add armor, I am accepting a weight penalty, and therefore a decrease in range, maneuverability, stealth, durability (the HumVee chasis wasn't designed for the additional weight). Plus the enemy just makes a bigger warhead, or changes his aim-points, or tactics.

Armor is intended to facilitate maneuver by protecting the soldier against common threats below a certain threshold. But it should also be noted that there have been a few M1 Tanks taken out by 'lucky' RPG shots.

31 posted on 12/21/2005 7:52:11 AM PST by Tallguy (When it's a bet between reality and delusion, bet on reality -- Mark Steyn)
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To: CondorFlight

Are you suggesting there is some kind of parallel between manufacturing a tube with some simple electronics and a trigger from a working prototype and the Bradley Fighting Vehicle, designed and built from scratch?

With respect, that's patently absurd.

Additionally, the Bradley had a bunch of design flaws that had to be corrected before it was put into service and it also had a ton of critics that slowed up the process.


32 posted on 12/21/2005 8:13:51 AM PST by Beckwith (The liberal press has picked sides ... and they have sided with the Islamofascists)
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To: nevergore
He only has Magic Wand 1.3.2 ver5......armored carriers and hurricane relief is scheduled in release 6.

Psst! We've had to push that feature back to release 7. The current version occasionally turns everything into artichokes. Stupid Weasley modifications...

33 posted on 12/21/2005 8:20:38 AM PST by Prime Choice (We are RepubliCANs, not RepubliCAN'Ts.)
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To: 2banana

The M1A2 Tanks are not even safe against some of the latest IED's in Iraq. Four of the 105 shells are able to roll the M1A2 tank over. Armored vehicles are no longer capable of providing protection from the shaped charge IED's. Maybe they can put some wheels or tracks on a battle ship and use that for mobility and safety.

In a war such as this, there is little protection when it's hard to define your enemy. The best defense would require manned trenches along all used roadways so they could kill the azz wipes before they planted the IED's in the first place. Which would require a lot more men.


34 posted on 12/21/2005 9:29:46 AM PST by herkbird (Semper Fi)
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To: airborne

Airborne,
I have mixed feelings about it. Because it sounds like the writer Mr. Smith my have a political agenda himself.
Still, his article makes sense specially if you compare a hummvvee replacement to the twenty years it took to build the Raptor.
My neighbor's son is in Iraq and I shudder when I think of him riding in those "glorified jeeps."


35 posted on 12/21/2005 10:34:39 AM PST by Moonraker
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To: Moonraker
In the works has been the Megachiroptera Project. An advanced armer protected vehicle cable of high speed maneuvers with heavy press and forget artillery.
In order to appease the indigenous life forms in the Middle East, the LBJs (Liberal Bastard Jackoffs) demanded,
that the vehicle must always face the East, thus it has been delayed in its deployment.
36 posted on 12/21/2005 12:08:04 PM PST by SteveSpeaking
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To: Prime Choice

I like artichokes....


37 posted on 12/21/2005 2:24:13 PM PST by nevergore (“It could be that the purpose of my life is simply to serve as a warning to others.”)
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To: Moonraker

I am beginning to really really dislike reporters. Politicians too.


38 posted on 12/21/2005 2:25:45 PM PST by ladyjane
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To: Ninian Dryhope

It needs to have a bitchin' Bose sound system as well.


39 posted on 12/21/2005 2:27:54 PM PST by kevkrom ("Zero-sum games are transactions mostly initiated by thieves and governments." - Walter Williams)
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