Does the US face an engineering gap?

The Christian Science Monitor ^ | December 20, 2005 | Mark Clayton

[Professional Engineer]

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[Small-L]

I can only comment from my limited personal experience. Four years ago, my company was working with the Pulp and Paper Department of a major southern state university--a kind of two way exchange, we gave them equipment and software, they did some minor research for us. During that exchange, I noticed that many of the graduate students were oriental. At the Industry Day luncheon, I commented on this to the University's Director of Development. His reply was nothing less than shocking.

It seems that ALL of the graduate students in that department were Chinese--not a single American--not even a Chinese student with an American citizenship. Every single graduate student was a Chinese alien with a student visa. Not surprisingly, even the department chair was Chinese.

Let me make this as clear as I can. This is a major state university funded by the taxpayers, in a region of the country that is heavily dependent on the pulp and paper industry. And EVERY graduate student (about 25) in that department were Chinese. Since the department can only handle a limited number of graduate students, some number of American applicants (albeit less qualified) had to have been turned away in order to admit these foreign students.

When I inquired as to the reason, his answer was simple, "because they pay full fare." It seems that many/most American graduate students need tuition assistance, teaching assistantships, and/or government loans. In contrast, the Chinese students are sent here by and funded by the Chinese government, and pay "full fare." It's simply a matter of profit and loss--the University makes more money educating alien Chinese students than American students.

I don't have the data to make an informed judgment about our relative numbers, but if we are falling behind, I tend to believe that it is primarily because of the policies of our own government (state and federal). Let there be no mistake, we are in economic competition with China, India, and the EU. And many of our state-sponsored universities are educating the competition.

[Milhous]

Speaking as an electrical engineer, IMHO its a societal thing. American society values occupations that manage and redistribute wealth but not those who create wealth. Lawyers, and brokers are deitified but engineers, designers, and the trades are seen as "geeky."

This lawyer thing goes back at least to the days of '49 gold rush, where astute observers noted that a person could make as much money disputing mining claims as actually mining gold.

[Kjobs]

They are also beginning to catch up in patents for new inventions. It is just a matter of time.

Yes. And the only way we can regain our lead is to begin teaching ID in the schools. /sarc.

[moog]

Good point. Around here things like the number of people getting CS degrees have plummeted.

[BuglerTex]

Alright, PEs, in my field the journal articles are written almost exclusively by asians, no doubt supporting research for their faculty advisor. Very very little of the information is of any use whatsoever in actual practice. Some of the information is innately inconsequential, because of the other variables in construction. How important is it to model an answer to +/- 3.5% accuracy if the assumed loads are +/-15%. It is not how many answers you get, or how accurate the answer if you dont ask the right questions. I have a friend and mentor, East European, who taught engineering at night for a major state university. 20 years ago, 3 or 4 sets of answers to his assignments. Farsi, Chinese, Urdu, all the same solutions. OK, so they work together, or one carries all. But he said it was because they could study engineering without speaking English.

[moog]

True

[moog]

I'm an engineer (PE) and I'm okay, I work all night and I work all day. ;)

A PE engineer? Boy, that would be cool! You could figure out the physics of doing jumping jacks or how to build the right pyramid or estimate how many somersaults Moose can do across the gym. Cool!

[BuglerTex]

What is CS? Computer Science?

[moog]

No wonder I haven't seen so many trains lately.

[moog]

Yes. I realize that is not necessarily an "engineering" degree, but it is within the realm.

[moog]

When I inquired as to the reason, his answer was simple, "because they pay full fare." It seems that many/most American graduate students need tuition assistance, teaching assistantships, and/or government loans. In contrast, the Chinese students are sent here by and funded by the Chinese government, and pay "full fare." It's simply a matter of profit and loss--the University makes more money educating alien Chinese students than American students. Nice points and ones to really think about.

[Tallguy]

There is also a lot of sandbagging going on at the average Chinese enterprise. People pretend to work, kicking decision upstairs. A friend of mine has been a Systems Administrator for IBM working in China for the last several years. When he returns to the US all meaningful work seems to stop.

[BuglerTex]

Oh, quite. But the breadth of the realm is part of the problem. Engineering spans industry, both directions ( or three and four ), so what is being out-sourced in software support, or in programming, is not in geotechnical. Some of the construction disciplines are just now getting leads from Indian drafting subconsultants, for example.

Check out MIT's Course I (Engineering) offerings.

Lumping all of engineering together for any statistic is no noisy it is meaningless.

Frankly, we do not have a lot of built environment engineers, but we are getting along alright. I do share the feeling that we are not recognized well enough for the responsibility. And we have a no-failure expectation in society today, something which is impossible.

[moog]

Oh, quite. But the breadth of the realm is part of the problem. Engineering spans industry, both directions ( or three and four ), so what is being out-sourced in software support, or in programming, is not in geotechnical. Some of the construction disciplines are just now getting leads from Indian drafting subconsultants, for example. Check out MIT's Course I (Engineering) offerings. Lumping all of engineering together for any statistic is no noisy it is meaningless. Frankly, we do not have a lot of built environment engineers, but we are getting along alright. I do share the feeling that we are not recognized well enough for the responsibility. And we have a no-failure expectation in society today, something which is impossible.

As a teacher, I relate well to that last statement of yours.

You make some pretty good points. All I can say is THANK GOD FOR ENGINEERS.

[MeanWestTexan]

"My interpretation of the article was that they were saying the comparisions are NOT equal, and in fact kind of false."

Having manufactured a submersible pump in China, I have to agree.

They slavishly duplicated an existing design, but were unable to adopt it to a new application (a thicker petrol) --- their changes made no sense.

And you have to hire everyone to get work done there --- you think the UAW is bad. EVERYBODY has their hand out.

[BuglerTex]

A teacher. Then we are also both sworn to serve. Yes, Thank God for all serving. What do you teach?

[saluki_in_ohio]

I'm an engineer (PE) and I'm okay, I work all night and I work all day. ;)

LOL!

I resemble that remark!

[moog]

A teacher. Then we are also both sworn to serve. Yes, Thank God for all serving. What do you teach?

I am an endangered species, being a male first grade teacher. But I love it and have some really neat kids this year. Sometimes they make me want to tear my hair out, but with the progress they make and their enthusiasm, it's pretty rewarding. They've REALLY gone up in reading this month--they've gone from knowing 6 letters to 13 hehe. Actually, a bunch of them are reading at or above a second grade level and their writing and math have really picked up too.

[rasblue]

I'm an engineer (PE) and I'm okay, I work all night and I work all day. ;)

Ain't that the truth. What's a 40 hour work week?