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"That sort of depends on what you or I consider "significant".. and abuse is still abuse, whether you consider it significant or not.."

I know that during WWII our citizens and government took things seriously. I guess some peacetime notions about significance are changed.

We interned some Japanese, Italians and Germans. We executed some Germans, who came out of a sub on our Atlantic shore.

Our Supreme Court did not disapprove.

So you point out to me specific abuses that have taken place, and explain how they compare to the significance and potential loss of say another 3,000 lives, in another attack/war?

If the Patriot Act is used to thwart terrorism, I support it. That would include the fundraising.

If the Patriot Act is used to bust neighborhood gambling, bootleg liquor sales, ghetto/barrio prostitution and drug sales, I consider those abuses.

A question - do you believe that it was right to intern Americans of Japanese, Italian, and German descent, particularly when there was no proof that the individuals being detained had sympathies for the governments we opposed at the time?

The mere fact that the Supreme Court does not object to something does not make it right. The Supreme Court, remember, originally had few qualms with the Jim Crow laws.

It is impossible to pull out specific instances of abuse. It is an abuse if the government has "mistakenly" ran surveillance over people not involved in terrorist plots. Unfortunately, the Patriot Act more or less ensures that such "abuses" will never come to light.

I quote Section 213:

SEC. 213. AUTHORITY FOR DELAYING NOTICE OF THE EXECUTION OF A WARRANT.

Section 3103a of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) by inserting `(a) IN GENERAL- ' before `In addition'; and

(2) by adding at the end the following:

`(b) DELAY- With respect to the issuance of any warrant or court order under this section, or any other rule of law, to search for and seize any property or material that constitutes evidence of a criminal offense in violation of the laws of the United States, any notice required, or that may be required, to be given may be delayed if--

`(1) the court finds reasonable cause to believe that providing immediate notification of the execution of the warrant may have an adverse result (as defined in section 2705);

`(2) the warrant prohibits the seizure of any tangible property, any wire or electronic communication (as defined in section 2510), or, except as expressly provided in chapter 121, any stored wire or electronic information, except where the court finds reasonable necessity for the seizure; and

`(3) the warrant provides for the giving of such notice within a reasonable period of its execution, which period may thereafter be extended by the court for good cause shown.'.
---------------------------------

Now, "mistakenly" running surveillance on an innocent person would certainly constitute an "adverse result" - if people knew that the Patriot Act was being misapplied, they would be less inclined to support it and they would take this valuable crime-fighting tool out of the hands of the government! Therefore, by the act's own words, it seems reasonable to expect that evidence of such searches will not be brought to light in a reasonably swift amount of time.

If the Patriot Act is used to thwart terrorism, I support it. That would include the fundraising.

If the Patriot Act is used to bust neighborhood gambling, bootleg liquor sales, ghetto/barrio prostitution and drug sales, I consider those abuses.

Do you truly believe that if evidence comes to light during a roving search regarding one of the latter cases you mentioned that it will not be used in a court of law?

So you point out to me specific abuses that have taken place, and explain how they compare to the significance and potential loss of say another 3,000 lives, in another attack/war?

NO..

I refuse to play that game..
I cannot point out something that has been classified as "secret" under the Patriot Act, and therefore is not available for me to use as "evidence" of abuses..
If the Federal Courts and federal judges, and defense attorneys are unable to get that information, how do you expect ME to get it.. ??

The constitution has specific provisions concerning this sort of thing..
It's called the Bill of Rights...

I said it before, and I will repeat myself, just this once..
I refuse to ignore the constitution when it becomes "inconvenient" for me..

I should not have to explain that to you.. EVER..

If the Patriot Act is used to bust neighborhood gambling, bootleg liquor sales, ghetto/barrio prostitution and drug sales, I consider those abuses.

FRIST: The conference report to reauthorize the PATRIOT Act includes all of these provisions and goes further to strengthen and improve America's security. It enhances vital safeguards to protect our civil liberties and privacy, and it contains new provisions to combat terrorist financing and money laundering, to protect our mass transportation systems and railways from attacks such as the ones on the London subway last summer, secure our seaports, and fight methamphetamine drug abuse, America's No. 1 drug problem.
Mash here -> 190th Congress - Senate - Dec. 16, 2005
Navigate to: 6 . THE PATRIOT ACT