Badr threatens to take up arms against former Saddam loyalists

I don't think some people here have understood how evil the Iranian Badr militia is. They are every bit as against Iraqi democracy as the hard core Saddamists fighting our troops. The only reason they haven't fought us is because we put them in power by having elections.

They have made it quite clear here that they will accept nothing but a Shia Islamic government and if voters go for Allawi or anyone else they will attack our troops and try to kill that person.

I must admit one super weak point of the new constituion is the fact they did not put in clear terms that all militias current and future would be banned. Put another way. Only a Iraqi army under the ministry of defense in the central government would be permitted.
I realize many reasons why such words where not included, but it is going to be a real thorn in their side from here on in.

Militias are a very great danger to Iraqis future.

You dont think its hypocritical not to let the Iraqis have a 2nd amendment to. Now understand, the Badr bunch are worse than the Iranian Mullahs, but if we are going to go around pushing "democracy" on people, we should give them the right to overthrow a tyrannous government.

Unfortunately, its Quixotic to think you can establish democracy in a 3rd world shithole like Iraq.

"Militias are a very great danger to Iraqis future."
Sort of your understatement of the year. ha ha. Yea. The damn organizations are so damn ingrained in the country due to the whole makeup, it is going to be hard to get rid of them without further bloodshed. But who knows. As the military and police forces continue to grow and improve, perhaps someone like Allawi if he where elected could convince all that they must be disbanded for the sake of all.
After all it will reach a point where no particular group can claim any reason for running a militia. Then again, if it is not distinctly made clear in the constitution militias are forbidden, then it is going to be a tough sell.

..the Badr Organization ..

Who are these guys? How much do they matter?

"Unfortunately, its Quixotic to think you can establish democracy in a 3rd world shithole like Iraq."
Democracy has already taken root in Iraq. And according to at least some, they are loving every minute of it. The right to vote for a candidate of their choosing. Yea, a Iman may tell them to vote for Abu Amed Kalid al-bozo, but when they go into the voting poll booth and check off who they want to elect to represent them, this is democracy at work. And perhaps we should remember part of the over all plan is to turn this shithole into a country that will have a secular government that will actually evolve into a somewhat westernized form and be a key ME allie. Their constitution has some basic safe guards written into it that spell out religion must only be active within the framework of the supreme council of judges as you probably read about. Where it will have the right to interceed in intpreting how far Sharia should be recognized within the bodies of laws that are written.
I know it is hard to keep all the facits of this deal in context, and certainly I often miss points or simply don't have a clue on some issues. So be it. I just think they are ripe for a possible break in the long held view that Islam must rule over a muslim country.
Obviouse to us time will show how well they fair in this grand experiment.
I suggest you be carefull in how you equate how what the framers of the Amerian Constitution had to deal with verse what this budding democracy has to deal with, regarding the right to bear arms and provide for a common militia in terms of fighting a tyranical government. Surely you can see the vast differences in what Iraq needs for long term stabilization. Our thirteen colonies where comprised of tribal units such as is found in the ME, just to name one thing. At any rate, I can symphasize with your doubts.

Well. At a high level, I think this culture is not capable of operating in a western style democracy for many various reasons. The Shia for example are only biding their time and waiting for us to leave so they can assume ownership of the oil wells. The Sunnis are as rabid as their Wahabi counterparts in the Madrassas of Peshwar. The Kurds are only true friends in the region and that poses major problems because the Turks, our supposed muslim "ally", have as much love for them as Saddam did.

I know it sounds Rudyard Kipling'ish, but I just don't think the foundations of their culture can sustain an enlightened form of government right now. This is not a xenophobic claim, this is sociological claim. Look at the governments in this region. They are far more archaic, despotic and downright brutal than the modern governments of Western Europe in the 18th Century.

Life in this part of the world is short, brutish and violent. Order is maintained at the end of a rifle or bayonet. It has been this way for nearly 600 years.

Part of the reason I voted for our current president is that we were not going to be "nation building". Yes, there is the argument that if we don't fix things up, Al Qaeda and other enemies will seize on the country and make it a base of operations. Well lets cut the lights on and realize that about 2/3 of our world is a 3rd world $hithole like Iraq already.

After 9/11, some punishment was due, in order to make a point to our enemies and establish the fact that we are not cowards or weaklings and we will bite back. Unfortunately, the PC in DC has forced into a humanitarian hopeless effort that will cost us billions. On top of that, we have lost the political option to finish the job (i.e. Syria, Iran) because we are bogged down trying to establish a democracy among a disfunctional entity called Iraq. Like Yugoslavia, it is a disaster waiting to happen like nearly every other 3rd world $hithole on this globe. There is a reason they are 3rd world countries.

We currently have an irrational national security policy that panders to political correctness as opposed to serving our best interests. This is at the cost of the security of people in this country like myself and my family. I don't really care if Mustafa has electricity in Ramadi, I do care that Iran is on the verge of producing nuclear warheads and has publicly stated that one of its neighbors should be "wiped off the face of the map."

In my opinion, we are wasting ammo in Iraq when we should be moving it east to Tehran.

I respect your well thought out replie. Nothing to debate as being foolish or otherwise. We obviously have different opinions on what should be or not be attempted in Iraq.
I will only add two things. And they don't have to be debated.
1. If indeed the Iraq stabilizes and ends up doing better then some predict, AND we are asked to stay and maintain bases, and spook shops as the good Iraqi General mentioned the other day, then Iran is closer to crumbling. And since the Iraqi's being mostly arabs hate the Persians and vice versa and many (within the Shia religious sects under Sistani have made it perfectly clear for some time they want no parts of Irananian influence nor do the high up Mullahs under Sistani want Iraq to be a theocracy), perhaps some of your fears are not going to come to past. 2. We cannot expect them to embrace westernized culture in full. That would be silly to think that was part of the end game. But if they will be solid partners in eventual world trade, partners in the WOT, a solid peacefull stabilizing force in the ME, it will force other ME countries to see what has been accomplished. If their standard of living is raised, other ME countries will look at what they have gained. I think we must look at the whole complex combination of hoped on goals over a period of time that this administration is hoping will literally changed how the peoples in this region, and surely those that have rich mineral resources can change for the betterment of their peoples and get rid of all the hate mongering attitudes that often leave so many camel humpers with no hope, no alternatives but to join jihad because they simply have nothing else to do or look forward to. Look at the peoples of Bahrain. Hell they go over the causeway to party and have a good time........like they say Allah don't see them there etc.. In short they could give a sh*t less with what the Quran and Hadiths have to say. They are living the sweet life, good food, nice cars, marginal religious rules, fine hospitals, and the like. And they do business with the USA without blinking and eye and have stayed the course and allowed us to set up shop in their land. Qatar allows our CENTCOM to operate with little restrictions etc.. If such a state could happen in those two ME countries why cannot it perhaps happen in Iraq? Surely those two mentioned countries are Muslim, and Arab. Why are they not fighting us, but in fact aiding us. And the same can be said about Kuwait. If it where not for Kuwait we would not be in Iraq. We would not have any friendly staging grounds for the enourmouse logistic operations required to run the SASO in Iraq. These three countries. So why can a similiar scenario take place in Iraq. That is what some of us here in essence are supporting.
I do not present the above as a charge that you must counter. And in essence it is not meant as a rebutal of what you responded with. For I to could say much the same thing in regards to the cultural differences long embedded within their being. But the three examples sort of show that dispite what you and I may from a perhaps long term study feel about these camel humpers, that in those three cases, we have received quite a bit of support from the above countries. And we realize Iraq is more complicated in many ways. Sure. Just take the agricultural aspects of the mostly Shia southern and eastern provinces. They live in shitholes in many cases. But in the same thought line I can say many of them have voiced complete pleasure in getting new clean water treatment plants, sewage systems, an electric grid they never had before. And now they can vote for their leaders by choice. We have opened new avenues up to the Iraqi people they have never in their existence had before.
And perhaps most of all, as we continue to trained and build their army and security police forces we are getting only very good vibes from them. And when they go home and tell their kids and wives just how great those American soldiers and Marines really are, it will rub off on the population. When a Iraqi soldier tells a Marine he is no longer just a friend but now a brother. The Iraqi army and police are forming a special bond with our guys. Something by all I have read over the past few years never existed in any ME force. Our State Department and associated non military people work closely with so many of the Iraqi leadership. Bonds form. Ideas get exchanged. Iraqis continue to see America and the coalition have no plans of occupation, but really want to get the hell out soon.
I guess I just see a lot of things, hardly mentioned, that point to a possible real change in Iraq. Perhaps all I say will come to nothing. That is this whole experiment will be a total failure. But we shall not know that until it becomes quite apparent. Meanwhile the other ME countries watch closely. They to seek freedom of expression and the right to vote for the leadership that would better their conditions.
Thats are quite abreviated take on how I see things developing in that region. Again please do not feel obligated to respond. What you say is not fundelmentally wrong nor off course, as to what could come to past. But we just don't know what the end product shall look like at this point. It is still in the design stage.

I sincerely hope your view is the right one. That is what I wish for. Unfortunately, I still think it is a long shot. Anyway, we shall hope for the best.

The Badr Corps are basically an Iranian backed militia. They're supported, organized, and guided by Iranian intelligence agents. They're probably the biggest militia in Iraq, all things being equal. They've been on a pretty tight leash, and haven't really caused much trouble, but they're looking further down the road than the Sunnis are. The Badr Corps is a very large and credible organization, and will be a major player in years to come.

... The Badr Corps are basically an Iranian backed militia. They're supported, organized, and guided by Iranian intelligence agents ...

Why does the Iraqi government tolerate them? Or are they just too big to mess with (for now)?

Because at this point, the Iraqi government is mostly Shiite, and the Badr Corps are a key part of keeping the southern part of the country stable. Once the central government gets more powerful, that will change. For now, there's really no alternative other than to accept a good deal of Iranian influence in the Shiite areas. Even among the Shiites, they don't really want to be ruled by Iran. They'd rather just have their own local government that works for them. But in the absence of government, and under attack by the Sunnis, accepting their help made plenty of sense.

So at some point, as Iraq becomes more stable and cohesive, the Iranians/Badrs can look forward to being frozen out, because they are no longer needed. It doesn't seem likely that Sistani and the Shiite religious center he heads will want the competing Iranian Shiite group on his doorstep any longer than necesary.

It would seem the Badr people need to hope for instability in the south, to remain viable. Unless they are planning to morph into a political movement if things get stable ... like the Baathists are doing now .. ?