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Pastor defends decision to close church on Christmas
AP ^ | 12/11/05 | AP

Posted on 12/11/2005 8:58:32 PM PST by Pikamax

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To: reagandemo

Well, I just finished listening to the entire sermon your pastor preached. I thank you for your 'in love' remarks towards me, earlier? You do not have to care what I or any other person may think, that is your privilege. You may think your pastor is right in canceling services on Christmas Sunday, and that is your privilege. Others may feel that he is wrong, and listening to his sermon, I surmise there are some within your own congregation who disagree with your pastor, well, we who disagree are privilege to think the way we do. I say this 'in love' as a Christian, and as your pastor would admonishes you to do the same. Merry Christmas!


161 posted on 12/12/2005 8:16:48 PM PST by rawhide
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To: Capriole

Two points.

I would have thought that there would be more than 100 volunteers involved on a Sunday morning at that church.

Second, I commented on one of these threads about a SBC church in Waco that wasn't holding services that Sunday morning, but which had online giving available. I notice that your church also has online giving. I wonder if there is a postitive correlation between online giving and cancellation of services on the 25th.

Finally, if you do wish to worship on that Sunday, I'll be happy to track down several churches in your area which are Bible believing, Bible teaching churches which will have services that day.


162 posted on 12/12/2005 8:31:42 PM PST by PAR35
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To: Capriole
If he doesn't want to drag 100 volunteers away from their families on Christmas and force them to work from 8 a.m. to 3:00 p.m. (which is how long the services run, including prep time and getting everybody out after the 1 p.m. service), he may just have a point.

Nobody "forces" *volunteers* to do anything - they're "volunteers"!!

163 posted on 12/12/2005 8:58:24 PM PST by NotJustAnotherPrettyFace
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To: Hawkeye
You know as well as I do that Jesus meant that statement in the spirit of loving Him so much that any other "loves" you have would seem as hate by comparison.

Yes, and? How does that work itself out in the believer's life?

Let's not forget the point of the post which you completely ignored: Jesus focused on relationship, NOT religion.

I'm in the habit of ignoring empty platitudes. As far as it has any meaning at all, it seems like a license to avoid what we're called on to do if we can just find some "relationship" excuse, even if it's relationships Christ said should be so much less important to us than He is.

But I'll admit the woman at the well was an expert on relationships.

You are attempting to turn this into some kind of debate where you "win". I'm sorry but there is no winner in that kind of discussion.

In this case I'm simply pointing out the unbiblical nature of the argument you used. I'm sorry if that seems pugilistic to you, but we're called to keep each other accountable to the Scriptures.

164 posted on 12/12/2005 9:01:38 PM PST by A.J.Armitage (http://calvinist-libertarians.blogspot.com/)
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To: PAR35
I would have thought that there would be more than 100 volunteers involved on a Sunday morning at that church.

I don't know. Just repeating what I heard. Maybe some of the work is taken up by paid personnel (like the guy who runs the music ministry, for instance, the extensive security staff, the teachers). I suspect that the bottom line is that the pastor may not want to pressure people to come work at the church in a paid or unpaid capacity on Christmas morning.

Second, I commented on one of these threads about a SBC church in Waco that wasn't holding services that Sunday morning, but which had online giving available. I notice that your church also has online giving. I wonder if there is a postitive correlation between online giving and cancellation of services on the 25th.

They probably pick up the financial slack in the three Christmas Eve services.

Finally, if you do wish to worship on that Sunday, I'll be happy to track down several churches in your area which are Bible believing, Bible teaching churches which will have services that day.

You're extremely kind. I think instead we will attend the late Saturday night service. My ex-husband's quest toward Christ is very fragile and I don't want to rock the boat with a different pastor at this point. He is convicted by the words of this pastor, a real Christmas miracle for a man who was once a vicious atheist.

We have a little tradition in our family that started when I was a little girl and my mother read to me a Ruth Graham book, The Story of Christmas. Now I read this lovely little book to my children on Christmas morning. Separate from the gift-giving and general hysteria, we have a prayer and also read the Gospel of Luke. That will be the basis of our Christmas morning worship.

165 posted on 12/12/2005 9:24:03 PM PST by Capriole (I don't have any problems that can't be solved by more chocolate or more ammunition.)
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To: Capriole

OK. Merry Christmas to you and your family.


166 posted on 12/12/2005 9:27:57 PM PST by PAR35
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To: Aquinasfan
Catholics believe that we are living in it. We're amillenial.

Amillennialism disregards a host of scriptures from all over the Bible:

Animals are still destroying one another, and Satan's chain is far to long! Unfortunately Augustine was to free with his allegorical rendering. Israel has been regathered in the promised land (1948), and established Hebrew as the national language. 1948 was a wake up call from God to clear up the errors of the allegorists.

When God says very good, He means it. Vegetarian animals render the theory of Evolution toothless. During the millennium, animals will revert to their pre-fall state.

Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust [shall be] the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death;

The fall of Adam brought death to the world.

Rev 20:2-3
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Zep 3:9-10
9 For then I will restore to the peoples a pure language, That they all may call on the name of the Lord, To serve Him with one accord. 10 From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia My worshipers, The daughter of My dispersed ones, Shall bring My offering.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

As the Book of Revelation reveals, the second coming of Jesus Christ will result in Him ruling from the throne of David. Currently Jesus is sitting at the right hand on the throne of the Father. When you throw the Book of Revelation to the wind, the rest of scripture falls apart.

167 posted on 12/12/2005 11:38:06 PM PST by bondserv (God governs our universe and has seen fit to offer us a pardon. †)
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To: A.J.Armitage
Yes, and? How does that work itself out in the believer's life?

You tell me. I'm curious. How do you live for Christ daily? How would you have others do so? What things do you do or say that have led people to Christ in the last year? Or, how many opportunities have you had to plant "seeds" for others to harvest? How would you have people love their neighbor?

I'm in the habit of ignoring empty platitudes. As far as it has any meaning at all, it seems like a license to avoid what we're called on to do if we can just find some "relationship" excuse, even if it's relationships Christ said should be so much less important to us than He is.

But I'll admit the woman at the well was an expert on relationships.

By "relationship" over "religion" I mean relationship in the following order: #1 With Christ, #2 With Family, #3 With Others. It is far from an empty platitude when it is an active, daily relationship between a believer and Jesus. I would think if we truly have a relationship with Him then we honor and adore Him daily. And following His model we would be loving others actively (not expecting a group of paid ministers to do all the work all the time) and hopefully with His help leading them to a saving knowledge of Christ.

In this case I'm simply pointing out the unbiblical nature of the argument you used. I'm sorry if that seems pugilistic to you, but we're called to keep each other accountable to the Scriptures.

How is Mark 12:30-31 unbiblical? You skipped these verses entirely and they are far from "empty platitudes". You combine it with "honor your father and mother" and you get the active relationships I mentioned in 1-3 above.

Have you listened to the Pastor's sermon yet? Do so and then please re-read all of my posts in this thread, and then feel free to keep me accountable. And I mean that. Typing instead of talking makes it harder to convey my spirit on this matter. I don't want to sound obstinate (or "pugilistic" ;-)). For that matter I don't want to sound pompous or proud either.

Right or wrong on this issue of Sunday church (and as you'll see I'm inclined to keep all churches open on Sunday especially for Christmas) this man and Southland are being completely maligned as satanic. Investigate him first so you'll know how to keep him accountable.

168 posted on 12/13/2005 3:54:25 AM PST by Hawkeye
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To: Hawkeye
Yes and I have the great pleasure of attending Southland in person and hearing his sermons. From his actions on and off the podium this man is truly guided by God. Unfortunately some uninformed people think otherwise.
169 posted on 12/13/2005 6:19:20 AM PST by reagandemo (The battle is near are you ready for the sacrifice?)
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To: stinkerpot65
Jesus asked that he be remembered by the Lord's supper...

Then how on Earth have we gone from a once a year Jewish holiday (Passover) to what different denominations do today?

Some stuff a cracker and a sip of wine EVERY service into you, some once a month, others 4 times a year - it's all OVER the place!

170 posted on 12/14/2005 5:09:53 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: swmobuffalo; metmom
What kind of message does that send?

How about....

"AARGHHH!!!

I've missed the boat!!!"?


Or...

"I guess the heat is off today."

171 posted on 12/14/2005 5:12:51 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: LearnsFromMistakes
Oh, and kudo's to all the sabbath keepers for not laying into most everyone on this thread.

Which is on Saturday anyway!


(You really meant "Abiders of the LAW", didn't you? ;^)

172 posted on 12/14/2005 5:14:33 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: RightWinger
.....the ones who only go to church twice a year on Christmas & Easter.
 
 
 
WAHHH!!!!!
 
It wasn't open when I  wanted to go!

173 posted on 12/14/2005 5:19:02 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: NotJustAnotherPrettyFace
Nobody "forces" *volunteers* to do anything -.......

Ok...... ;^)

174 posted on 12/14/2005 5:20:53 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Pikamax

Knee-jerk reaction? About closing the church on a Sunday that is also Christmas day? Misguided Christians in Jesus' time? Wow, this is from the pastor. They are worried, I understand, about low attendance. But it's a glass half full thing, to me. They should be pleased about those who can or are able (ie not away therefore absent) to attend. I hope they aren't so worried about offending those who can't or won't attend that they cancelled Sunday services to spare the feelings of those, leaving the ones who would want to attend out in the cold.


175 posted on 12/14/2005 5:27:30 AM PST by fortunecookie
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To: CharlesWayneCT

I presume from his statement that there is a Christmas eve service at the church that begins after 6 PM.
Our church is having a Sunday morning service and we have planned our day accordingly. It gives all of our daughters and their children time to visit others earlier in the day if they wish to.
The church was not going to have a Christmas eve service until one of the older members complained. Now we are.
I know from experience that the evening service will be the heavily attended service and the morning service will be scant.
The last time Christmas fell on a Sunday there were maybe ten people at the morning service. Not right perhaps, but a fact, nevertheless.


176 posted on 12/14/2005 5:40:26 AM PST by Wiser now (A bitter, sour old woman is the crowning work of the devil.)
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To: fortunecookie

Read my posts on this thread and click the link to hear *everything* the pastor had to say and not just the couple of quotes from this article.


177 posted on 12/14/2005 7:00:12 AM PST by Hawkeye
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To: Hawkeye
I listened to around half of the sermon. My question is, if he beliefs Christmas has its roots in Roman paganism (which I believe as well) then why isn't he working instead to address the importance attached to it? His church is having three Christmas services on Sat. Dec 24th to observe a holiday that has pagan roots? He should never have addressed the pagan aspect.

Secondly, I think he too quickly derides those who question this decision as being inspired by Satan. He also alludes to biblical quotations about Christian persecution. Sorry, I don't think this quite qualifies. Southland Christian is a conservative church, and I'm sure many of its leaders would object to the teachings of other denominations. Does he never voice his own disagreements with those of other Christian beliefs?
178 posted on 12/14/2005 7:34:57 AM PST by gingerky
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To: gingerky
Listen to the rest of the sermon. I think you'll see some of your questions are answered. The second half is the better, imho, anyway.

His church is having three Christmas services on Sat. Dec 24th to observe a holiday that has pagan roots?

While I believe he did address this somewhat in the 2nd half of the sermon, I think it is safe to say this will be more developed during the actual Christmas services and/or the service prior. He was addressing several aspects of the whole "controversy" and I am speculating here, but I think you can only hit so many points. Had he focused purely on the origins of the Christmas celebration, even in summary, he may not have had time to address other issues he felt led to address.

I really don't know, and I don't want to be accused of putting words in his mouth as others have done. As stated, I'm merely speculating based on what I know of the man (which can easily be investigated by going to Southland's website).

Secondly, I think he too quickly derides those who question this decision as being inspired by Satan.

I disagree. Certainly humans don't need much help but as we know from Scripture Satan uses our own tendencies against us. Scripture cautions us against petty bickering amongst the brethren and is very clear if you have a disagreement with another Christian there is a proper way to handle it. If someone is a true child of God I wouldn't expect their first reaction, and I gladly quote the pastor on this, their "knee-jerk reaction", to call the pastor a "child of Satan". Look at some of the comments in this very thread that assail the character of this man (like post #4: Translation: I'm a lazy, money-grubbing fraud who doesn't hesitate to spout heresy when threatened.) and you tell me that's an example of a good Christian trying to properly hold a brother accountable for a poor decision. Tell me Satan isn't delighted in that kind of attitude.

Does he never voice his own disagreements with those of other Christian beliefs?

Absolutely, and "in love" as he likes to put it. There's a particularly good sermon regarding homosexuality on their website that appears to have caused quite a stir. I'm sure articles can still be googled at the Herald-Leader for the local communities reaction. He clarified that Scripture in no way makes allowances for same-sex relationships and those that teach otherwise are twisting Scripture. I would say that qualifies as drawing a line in the sand with those of denominations who are adding homosexuals to the ministerial ranks, etc.

179 posted on 12/14/2005 8:42:36 AM PST by Hawkeye
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To: Elsie

The New Testament says that the early church broke bread frequently, at least every Sunday, although there is no direct command on the timing.

But, there is no mention of any Christmas celebration in the New Testament.


180 posted on 12/14/2005 11:47:09 AM PST by stinkerpot65
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