Posted on 12/08/2005 6:54:56 AM PST by jackbenimble
(CNSNews.com) - Illegal aliens who work under borrowed, stolen or fraudulent Social Security numbers could collect retirement benefits based on their illegal earnings as the result of a Bush administration plan. Critics charge the federal government has grossly underestimated the cost of the proposal, which they believe could run be billions of dollars per year.
Congress is expected to vote on some combination of proposed changes to immigration laws as early as next week, according to sources working with the House Homeland Security and Judiciary committees. While members have not been able to reach agreement on the details of a temporary or "guest worker" program advocated by President Bush, the White House might use the legislative opportunity to seek approval for an International Social Security Agreement with Mexico, something it has wanted for more than two years.
Mark Kirkorian, executive director of the Center for Immigration Studies, told Cybercast News Service that the arrangements, usually called "totalization agreements," with industrialized countries like Canada, the United Kingdom and even France are beneficial. But those benefits, he argued, would not come from an agreement with Mexico.
"The point to a totalization agreement is for two advanced countries that occasionally send corporate transferees from one country to the next for a two or three year stint to be able to reconcile their respective retirement systems," Kirkorian said. "It's not for a third world country that sends millions of peasants into a developed country to take advantage of; there's a complete mismatch, an imbalance."
Kirkorian points out a number of differences between the U.S. and Mexican Social Security systems including:
Workers are vested in the U.S. system in 10 years versus 24 years in Mexico;
The U.S. pays greater benefits to lower income workers whereas Mexico pays out only the premiums paid in, plus accrued interest; and
Most Mexican workers avoid their country's Social Security system by working in the "underground economy," while most U.S. workers have Social Security taxes automatically collected from their wages.
The U.S. has entered into totalization agreements with 20 countries since 1978. The Social Security Administration (SSA) describes the arrangements on its website:
"[These] agreements have two main purposes. First, they eliminate dual Social Security taxation -- the situation that occurs when a worker from one country works in another country and is required to pay Social Security taxes to both countries on the same earnings," the SSA site explains. "Second, the agreements help fill gaps in benefit protection for workers who have divided their careers between the United States and another country."
Congress does not have to give approval for the totalization agreements, but lawmakers are given the opportunity to vote them down. SSA Commissioner Jo Anne Barnhart explained the benefits of totalization for U.S. employers and employees during her Sept. 11, 2003 testimony to the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Immigration, Border Security and Claims.
"Without totalization the combined Social Security tax rate that U.S. employers and employees working in foreign countries must pay often approaches 40 percent or more of total payroll," Barnhart testified.
In March of 2003, the SSA's Office of the Chief Actuary estimated that a totalization agreement with Mexico would cost the U.S. $78 million in the first year, growing to $650 million (in constant 2002 dollars) by 2050. That determination assumed that the initial number of newly eligible Mexican recipients would be equal to the 50,000 beneficiaries then living in Mexico, and that the eligible number would grow to only 300,000 over the next 48 years.
But the agency now known as the Government Accountability Office (GAO) GAO report disputed that estimate.
"[T]his proxy figure does not directly consider the estimated millions of current and former unauthorized workers and family members from Mexico and appears small in comparison with those estimates," the GAO determined. "The estimate also inherently assumes that the behavior of Mexican citizens would not change and does not recognize that an agreement could create an additional incentive for unauthorized workers to enter the United States to work and maintain documentation to claim their earnings under a false identity."
Kirkorian believes those would be the unintended consequences of the president's proposed "guest worker" program.
"If the president gets his way and [those illegal aliens are] legalized, and he submits this totalization agreement to Congress," Kirkorian warned, "then all of the illegal aliens who get this 'amnesty' that he wants, get to count all of their Social Security payments when they were illegal toward their eventual retirement."
Barnhart told the congressional subcommittee that such an outcome could not happen.
"As is the case with our existing agreements, a totalization agreement with Mexico would not alter current law on this issue," Barnhart testified. "Totalization agreements do not have any effect on the prohibition against payment of benefits to illegal aliens in the United States."
But if Congress approves the president's "guest worker" plan, the "adjusted" status of previously illegal employees would mean that they would no longer be excluded from eligibility for Social Security payments.
"What they want is for illegal aliens who 'adjust' to some kind of legal status to be able to count their illegal work toward Social Security," Kirkorian said. "That's not up for contention, that's just a fact. The Social Security Administration negotiated the agreement, already, with Mexico."
A March 2003 report by the Social Security Administration's Office of the Inspector General (SSA-OIG) validates Kirkorian's concern.
"SSA's practice allows non-citizens to work illegally in the U.S. economy for a number of years, eventually acquire a valid SSN and have these earnings posted to their valid SSNs, and then receive [Social Security] benefits as a result of those earnings," the inspector general reported. "SSA does not consider the work-authorization status of the individual when they earned the wages; it only considers whether the individual can prove he or she paid Federal Insurance Contribution Act (FICA) taxes as part of this work."
Data from the 2000 Census indicate that 9.1 million Mexican citizens are living in the United States, 4.8 million of them illegally. The SSA-OIG report speculated about the impact that those illegal aliens could have if they became eligible for U.S. Social Security benefits.
"If these Mexican non-citizens are also working in the United States illegally, and an amnesty and/or totalization agreement occurs," the report warned, "SSA potentially may need to reinstate a large volume of [Social Security taxes paid under false or fraudulent account numbers] based on earlier unauthorized work."
Marti Dinerstein, president of Immigration Matters, also criticized the SSA in a September 2004 report entitled "Social Security 'Totalization' - Examining a Lopsided Agreement with Mexico," for using Canada as the model for its Mexican totalization cost estimates.
"The estimated number of Canadians living in the United States is 820,000," Dinerstein wrote. "Given the fact that a totalization agreement would cover not just Mexican workers but also their spouses and dependents, it is highly likely that over time, potentially millions of people would receive U.S. Social Security benefits and the cost would be in the billions of dollars."
"It's pretty ludicrous, frankly," Kirkorian concluded. "Mexico is just not the kind of country that you should be having this kind of agreement with."
The White House did not return calls seeking comment for this article.
Any taxes they paid in under a fake ID SURE AS HELL should be forfeit. And they damn well ought to go to prison. Sheeesh this kind of thinking makes me mad.
Don't forget the leaving of the Appeals Court Judges out to dry. Strategery, they all said.
I don't even listen to GWB when he speaks anymore. Because of this issue, I cannot take him seriously on much else.
We'll elect another elitist too because as soon as a nationalist pops their head up the whole chorus starts up with "Unelectable, Unelectable", and we end up with Ahnuld. Or whomever, but that was a nice microcosm.
I have several beefs with President Bush. Illegal immigration is probably the biggest but I will never forgive him for the massive expansion of socialism that he imposed on us with Medicare Prescription Drugs. I am also furious about his runaway spending in general. The Republican Congress gets a lot of that blame but the President does have a veto pen.
To me GWB is summed up by this:
He signed CFR admitting at the time it was unconstitutional. I have yet to see one BUSHBOT explain this way in anything but the most childish and insincere way.
To me, the illegal invasion we are undergoing is doing what exactly what Karl Marx and Al Qeada have expressly desired. They are destroying the fabric and underpinnings of the society.
We are going the way of Rome for exactly the same reasons.
You can't believe that. It is amazing how much some will lie to themselves to justify their continued support for Bush.
People that blame Bush deserve what Bill Clitnon was doing.
But I have to give you credit for the funniest misspelling of Clinton that I have seen.
I don't know if you had a chance to read the following thread or not, but Norquist factors into it.
GOP (Leadership) forms strategy to OK guest workers (Sneak In Amnesty???)
Washington (Dec 6, 2005) - Republican leaders will try to pass President Bush's controversial guest-worker proposal without putting it to a direct vote in the House.
Observers say the new GOP strategy that begins today is for the House to deal only with the more politically palatable issue of increasing border security and clamping down on employers. Republican leaders then will let the Senate pass some form of a guest-worker plan.
[snip]
But the House members will be aware of the plan to build in a guest-worker program through the conference committee, said Grover Norquist, a Republican strategist who often serves as an informal liaison between Congress and the White House.
"The president's made it clear he wants both (border security and a guest-worker program)," Norquist said.
That argument of republicans voting against Bill Clinton won't work with a Pelosi/Reid/Hillary govt.
The conservative democrats have left the dem party, redistricted out,switched parties or retired: Breaux, Miller, Steholm, Hall, Alexandar of LA, Lucas. Their are no more purple blue dog dems. The party is unified to appeal to their moonbat base.
I don't know about you but I didn't enjoy the Clinton years giving us the ruth bader ginsberg and stephen breyer justices. Those picks are far far more important than the legislature. I don't know how any conservative in their right mind enjoyed those picks. They ruined the laws of our land which are now far to the left and precedent. Do you like affirmative action in universities which those justices gave us?
The dem party once they get control will vote for permanent amnesty. In the senate all dems except 2 voted for permanent amnesty this year.
You will get what you deserve with this extreme left dem party. Thier isn't going to be a republican congress after 06 and once the dems get the presidency watch out. Maybe you need that to see just how radical the left is. Hope you are looking forward to watching more ruth bader ginsberg appointments when Stevens retires for Hillary.
It was Bill Clinton who pushed Nafta. Without him their would have been no nafta. Don't you remember the perot/gore debate.
Clinton got a majority of the dems to vote for nafta. He was the only one that could of done that. The conservatives think congress worked good with him though. Remember under Clinton the first few years we got gays in the military, way higher taxes, ruth bader ginsberg, breyer, came very close to hillary care. Sounds great.
And how is that different from what President Bush is offering? He says it isn't amnesty but until he explains how they will be made to leave in six years it can only be understood as the same thing deceitfully called something different.
Yup the SS has largest number of incompetent actuaries in the world. Talk about uncredible!!! What year is SS going negative, 2009?
The dem plan isn't 6 years it is permanent. The parents won't even have to wait till their anchor baby kid turns 18 to get citizenship.
The dem plan will encourage all the poor in mexico to come here to get permanent amnesty. Under the dem plan illegals will become citizens right away and get every right that a u.s citizen wants.
Steve Young the dem who lost to Campbell in the Ca-48 race had a plan for illegals to pay a little and get permanent amnesty.
The dem plan would give all 25 million illegals here voting rights. The dem party will become a powerhouse.
Kerry last year wanted permanent amnesty for all current and future illegals.
Guest worker program will bring the illegals out of the shadows and they will get deported when they don't go home. To compare this to the dem plan is crazy and the day will come when the dems have the congress and presidency to pass this. Pelosi is going to be the most powerful leftist speaker of the house ever. She will have a united moonbat party to set out her wrath of america.
Just remember who we are talking about. The dem party is the party of Dean their chairman. Dean calls anyone a racist that brings up illegal immigration.
I think a lot of conservatives need some Pelosi leadership to see how radical she is. That will put a complete stop to comparing the parties.
Listen to the debate next week on the house floor with the gop looking for border security and the dems accusing them of racism.
Watch the votes on the house floor next week as well.
You keep comparing the parties you will get speaker of the house pelosi the most radical leftist house leader ever. Just what we need a san francisco liberal leading congress.
So the illegal has his check stubs, the name on which matches the one on his forged Social Security card.
His employer's records reflect all that, because (here it gets complicated) he gave that information to it.
The SSA confirms when the employer turns in the information at the time of hire.
It's pretty simple to rip us off, actually.
If this deranged President succeeds in implementing his giveaway of America to Mexico, can the next President cancel that agreement or treaty, or whatever it is?
Excellent points.......this nation is being de-constructed before our very eyes.
Hail Bush!...The Exulted One Speaks....
BUSH BOTS!...KNEEL BEFORE YOUR GOD...
Who cares if they're in the shadows, they can stay there or better yet go home. Nobody believes for a minute they're going to be deported when their time runs out anymore than they are now or like the thousands of H1-b overstayers who never leave.
So you might as well give it up, you're wasting your time trying to convince anyone to get on board to another guest worker scam whether it's from the GOP or the democrats.
If this deranged President succeeds in implementing his giveaway of America to Mexico, can the next President cancel that agreement or treaty, or whatever it is?
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Yes. And it will probably take Congressional support because any law he gets through for his Mexican buddies will have to be changed. The situation really sucks -- I cannot believe he is doing what he is doing -- going AGAINST THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE AND DAMAGING OUR SOVERIGNTY and the list goes. This is just crap!!!
I prefer the gridlock of the late 90's. The GOP had guts, and the RATS had a cigar. Nothing getting done is better than what is being proposed.
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