[Alamo-Girl]

So then, not knowing the full exent of a system, in all its aspects, labeling random to some aspect of it is science then?.. and not philosophy.?. like labeling an unknown in math as X?.. and assuming X to be random occurrance, or at least highly variable.?.

Indeed. This goes back to betty boop's original objection to Dawkins' approach (at least one of them) - namely, that he never starts at the beginning, he proceeds from step n.

It is interesting to know what people take as axioms. An atheist must take "existence" as an axiom.

I wonder how few who take existence as an axiom are willing to take "life" as an axiom - or "soul, spirit, mind or consciousness" as an axiom.

[hosepipe]

[ It is interesting to know what people take as axioms. An atheist must take "existence" as an axiom. ]

True.. makes me think that a smart honest atheist would/should at least say;
"If there is no God, well, there ought to be one"..
and inventing one would/should be mandatory to proper human progessive education..
Starting with a God concept and educating yourself out of it.. and thats the way it SHOULD BE..

Yeah.. a spiritual temper tantrum seems to be the diagnosis.. Maybe an atheist is just a spoiled intellectual brat.. i.e. They want what they want and thats all it is too it.. They want there to be no God.. And by GOD thats all there is to it.. LoL..

[PatrickHenry]

It is interesting to know what people take as axioms. An atheist must take "existence" as an axiom. I wonder how few who take existence as an axiom are willing to take "life" as an axiom - or "soul, spirit, mind or consciousness" as an axiom.

Gotta pin definitions down very carefully, or the discussion will go nowhere. Life isn't an axiom, because existence without life is certainly possible. Roughly speaking, a philosophical axiom (I'm not speaking of math, which has its own way of looking at things) is a proposition that is so fundamental that it can't be developed from simpler propositions, and without which no thinking can be accomplished. This website has some useful discussion: Axiom.