Posted on 12/06/2005 10:30:30 AM PST by xsysmgr
Here's the difference (and the process): Microsoft comes up with a whiz-bang project. It combines internet, wireless, security, GPS, operating systems, etc. Microsoft knows that it will need engineers competent in ABC, DEF.2, JKL-M, NPq.r, and STU.11.V, so it sets up a subsidiary in India that trains a bunch of competent Indians full time for a year.
Grizzled Old Programmer has no idea that is likely or even possible that a job could exist a year from now that will require experience in every single one of these completely disparate skills to get his next job. He might be able to pick up one or two on his existing job, but there's no way he can pick them all up.
Microsoft announces with great amounts of crocodile tears that it needs engineers with all those skills for its new whiz-bang project, that it can't find them in the U.S. at any price, moans and groans about the low number of CS and EE graduates from U.S. colleges, and magically finds them in India, fully trained, and at half-price too.
This is certainly true.
But companies have the options of offshoring some of their IT, although this is not as easy as it looks.
There is also a trend to world wide wage equalization. Wages in India are already approaching 40-50% of US wages for highly skilled people. In fact, they were paying MBAs with IT project management experience MORE than in the US, because they needed them so badly.
Other fields may be offshored too. Accounting, law, investment banking can all be done elsewhere. Only doctors and dentists are safe for now.
You know, I've had it with the Republican "Pro Business " Party. Why should any American spend $30,000 per year or more in getting a college education only to get screwed by these nitwits in congress and their business buddies.
I just came back from Ohio where there is a large research firm that openly employs massive amounts of Indian programmers. The joke in the neighborhood was that you could watch droves of them crossing the street to go to work in the morning - and, it was no joke.
I kept saying to myself "These people are filling jobs that Americans don't want"; you know, the old Harvard George Bush line. Anyone who had successfully completed a degree in business and who had graduated with above a "C" average would know, the true complete sentence is "These people are filling jobs that Americans don't want, for the money companies want to pay". And as anyone with the slightest intelligence would realize, since labor is a factor of production, all businesses would like to pay as little or even nothing for it.
Believe me, if driving around in a new car, living in an luxury apartment and working in one of the nicest research parks I've seen is employment Americans don’t want, I'm completely speechless.
The town I am referring to is the first city north to Cincinnati.
Roger that ~ now you're talking. ;)
They may be making high salaries compared to the guys back in India, and doing very nicely.
But you would have to look at how Americans with comparable ability, education, and ambition can do for themselves.
They might well be saying: "Sure, I would make $80K a year and live in a nice apartment in Ohio with an IT career. But if I get an MBA or law degree from one of the top five schools, I can get a corporate banking job in New York and make at least three or four times that."
There are of course Americans who would like these jobs, but the poor education in this country prevents them acquiring the skills needed.
More and mor epeople are seeing it thais way. I have been concerned about it for years.
And if I may argue further, I know a very bright guy from India who came over here as a programmer on an H1B. He found out what American corporate life is like, decided he would get nowher in IT, and got an MBA from Wharton.
"Surely there is some difference between a grizzled old COBOL programmer and a young guy with a current skill set."
Surely there is. However, there are lots of "grizzled old" guys (you know, in their 40s) that have nice current skill sets. I'm one.
I've seen the prevailing wages for software developers deteriorate drastically over the last 5 years. Sure, there was a lack of demand after the ".com bubble" burst. That lack of demand was radically exacerbated, though, by a huge influx of H1B visa holders brought in to combat the *supposed* shortage of qualified software people during the Internet boom. (Hint: there wasn't actually a shortage.)
First of all, the entire H1B program was designed to provide *cheap* technical labor, undercutting free market economics and shafting American software developers. Don't believe the lies about H1B holders making "prevailing market wages", current information shows that was a sham. Second, the program wasn't curtailed whatsoever after the Internet bubble crashed, the politicians simply let American software developers twist in the wind. Even today, engineering unemployment rates exceed national averages. Now we have the H1B program being EXPANDED again. Brilliant.
I find it unsurprising that few students today are choosing science and engineering careers - our society's attitude towards and treatment of those who wish to devote their lives to such things speaks for itself.
Meanwhile, Microsoft expects American taxpayers to defend its "interests" both here and abroad. How will they do that if they don't make a decent income?
Every day, more and more, the GOP led congress is looking more and more arrogant, like the then Democratically controlled congress looked in 93. The spirit of 94 sadly looks quite dead.
It is very clear that you do not understand who is being "replaced" with H1B labor. It is American techies who are fully qualified for the jobs. COBOL has been a non-issue for nearly twenty years. Young and middle-aged engineers alike with very current skills are being dumped purely to lower those payscales.
"United We Stand", a load of bullshit.
"If anyone thinks our elected leaders give a damn about Americans this is but one more piece of evidence to prove them wrong."
Or gives a damn about the troops who will be returning and needing jobs when they are discharged. What a great way to show them recognition! (sarcasm and disgust with Republicans from the top to the bottom!!)
It is getting damn close to the time when we will need to send out invitations to the Tea Party. Be sure to include "Patriots Only" in your invitation.
Me too, except I'm 56. I'm now operating at 80% of my entry wage into the market based upon inflation and my present salary. I'm at the peak efficiency and knowledge of my career. The work I do requires a mere shadow of what I am capable.
It does make a lot of dollar sense for individual companies to engage in this labor arbitrage, but it is not good for our country.
Man, did you nail the whole process! I've been preaching this exact same thing for the last 18 month's and everyone looks at me like I'm a card shy of a deck. Great read of the problem, kudo's! Blackbird.
you seen this one?
IMHO the H1B visa, and any other mechanism that binds a worker to an employer, is a violation of the 13th amendment and a form of involuntary servitude. In future years people who support the H1B visa will be looked upon in the same way we now view people who benefited from slavery.
Nice of Phyllis to come on board. And about #@$%ed time. Beg pardon.
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