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To: CarolinaGuitarman
Thank you for making our point that ID is not a scientific idea.

NO, I'm actually in full agreement with that statement. NO difference of opinion, there.

We, as a species, are forever unable to use science to prove/disprove ID claims. I find them intellectually challenging. Just because we can't disprove/prove doesn't mean they aren't valid (as you probably realize).

The intent of my argument was to carry the idea further, out of the realm of biology and into physics, where it would be provable, through deduction: the universe cannot have created itself. (Q.v., Kalam Cosmological Argument, no such thing as an actual infinite, begging the question, etc.)

The universe cannot have been created through the agency of other matter and energy coming from elsewhere, because it would merely beg the question: what created that? Therefore, "brane theory" falls apart.

I am constantly suprised that Christians are challenged (fairly, I must say) by those who attack their claims saying that Christians (or Deists) invoke God when they can't explain something. We do. But the rhetorical rules must be evenly applied: When physicists can't explain Big Bang, they just as deceitfully resort to brane theory, which is violating the same rhetorical principles, and is also a cop-out, begging the question, giving us no answer.

They're too proud to admit it. They also don't want to play by the same rules they attempt to hold Deists to.

It is completely plausible, given the facts that we have, that an Intelligent Designer created Life. If the universe created it (Pantheism), then the ultimate quesiton would be, fine, what created the universe? Again, the mind is pointed toward an extra-univeral entity.

Don't get me wrong: Science and the Judeo-Christian religion point strongly to each other. There is no conflict between them which will not be resolved as it always has been.

Peace.

Sauron

294 posted on 12/05/2005 2:17:58 PM PST by sauron ("Truth is hate to those who hate Truth" --unknown)
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To: sauron
"The intent of my argument was to carry the idea further, out of the realm of biology and into physics, where it would be provable, through deduction: the universe cannot have created itself."

Physics isn't provable either. The universe may be a simple consequence of the laws of nature.

"When physicists can't explain Big Bang, they just as deceitfully resort to brane theory, which is violating the same rhetorical principles, and is also a cop-out, begging the question, giving us no answer."

Physicists can explain the Big Bang. Just not completely. No science explains reality completely.

" It is completely plausible, given the facts that we have, that an Intelligent Designer created Life."

Or not.

"If the universe created it (Pantheism), then the ultimate quesiton would be, fine, what created the universe? "

Unanswerable. Mystics aren't intellectually honest enough to admit they may not know something.

"Again, the mind is pointed toward an extra-univeral entity."

Some minds. Could also be a million entities, working in committee fashion. No way to know.

"Don't get me wrong: Science and the Judeo-Christian religion point strongly to each other. There is no conflict between them which will not be resolved as it always has been."

As long as religion changes to fit the physical evidence.
299 posted on 12/05/2005 2:25:43 PM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: sauron
It is completely plausible, given the facts that we have, that an Intelligent Designer created Life. If the universe created it (Pantheism), then the ultimate quesiton would be, fine, what created the universe?

It is completely plausible, given the facts that we have, that Evolution is the driving engine of terrestrial life. If God created it(monotheism), then the ultimate question would be, fine, what created God?

329 posted on 12/05/2005 3:11:13 PM PST by RogueIsland
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