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Islam’s mystical claim on Jerusalem
American Thinker ^ | 12-4-05 | James M. Arlandson

Posted on 12/04/2005 6:58:07 PM PST by SJackson

Three faiths have claimed ownership over Jerusalem. Plain ancient history favors Jewish ownership over the holy city. Christians claimed control of it at various moments in history, but no sound theological or historical claim can or should be made for ownership. Yet many Muslims today claim Jerusalem as theirs. Islam’s claim on Jerusalem can be questioned because of two dubious reasons and because these shaky reasons come too late in history.

In AD 630, Muhammad led an army of about 30,000 jihadists northward to fight the Byzantines. He stopped in Tabuk, in northern Saudi Arabia today, but in the seventh century it sat in a kind of no-man’s land, where northern Arab tribes lived. He had heard a rumor that the Byzantines had assembled a massive army, but the rumor was false because they never showed up. Yet, the Prophet’s northward march must have deeply impressed the northern tribes. He was able to extract agreements from them, saying, in effect, that they would be safe from aggression (read: aggression from Muhammad himself) if they paid a tax for the “privilege” of living under his “protection.”

It is impossible to exaggerate the influence of the Tabuk Crusade as precedent. Muhammad showed his followers how to deal with peoples that Muslim armies confronted after his death (Sura 9:29).

(1) The attacked region or city may fight and die;

(2) they may become Muslims and pay a forced charity tax, the zakat; or

(3) the Jews and Christians may keep their faith and pay a jizya tax. There was little hope for polytheists and their religious “freedom” under Islam.

Muhammad died of a fever in 632. Later Muslims learned well from the example of their founder. In 634, Muslim armies stormed out of the Arabian Peninsula and began the conquest of Palestine (and other regions). In 638, Muslims conquered Jerusalem. Fifty years later, in 688, they began the construction of the Dome of the Rock. In 692, they finished the building project.

Various armies have fought over Jerusalem, but surprisingly, it has been Muslim armies and self-proclaimed leaders of Islam who have battled each other over the city (and Palestine) more often than non-Muslims. For example, Moshe Gil in A History of Palestine: 634-1099 says that the Fatimids, a North African Shi’ite dynasty named after Muhammad’s daughter because the rulers claimed descent from her, invaded Palestine in 970 and destroyed it after a century of unceasing war, especially devastating its Jewish population.

The Fatimid army… turned toward Palestine…. Theoretically, this was the outset of about a century of Fatimid rule in Palestine. In fact, the Fatimids were compelled to join battle with not a few of the enemies who stood in their way: the Arabs… the Qarmatis; a Turkish army… Arab tribes in Syria… and in the background the Byzantines were lurking …. [A]ll in all, it was an almost unceasing war which destroyed Palestine, and especially its Jewish population, even before the Crusaders’ eventuality. (p. 336)

To take other examples, in 1071, the Turks besieged Jerusalem, which surrendered in 1073. Thus, Jerusalem came under the control of the Sunnis and out from under the Shi’ite Fatimids. Next, the European Crusaders conquered Jerusalem in 1099, but then in 1187 Saladin took it back.

But how strong is a militant claim? What happens when a more powerful army claims Jerusalem, as the Jews did in 1967 in response to Arab aggression? A military foundation is strong only for a moment. So what are the right reasons for owning a city or land?

Taking a step back to view the big picture clarifies matters. If Islam had not stormed out of the Arabian Peninsula after Muhammad’s death to wage wars of conquest, then no trouble would have emerged. But Islam is imperialistic and is bent on world domination.[1] Aside from following Muhammad’s warpath that culminated in the Tabuk Crusade and engaging in sheer conquest, why else do Muslims assert their ownership over Jerusalem?

It is a fact that Muhammad never entered Jerusalem in a down-to-earth way, with boots on the ground, as it were. It is also a fact that the Quran never mentions Jerusalem once.

However, according to the prolific Muslim scholar Seyyed Hossein Nasr, professor of Islamic Studies at George Washington University, Muhammad transformed Jerusalem into a holy site for Muslims in three primary ways (“The Spiritual Significance of Jerusalem: The Islamic Vision. The Islamic Quarterly. 4 (1998): pp.233-242).

First, while in Mecca the Prophet used Jerusalem as his first qiblah (prayer direction); then, after Muhammad emigrated from Mecca to Medina, Allah permitted his prophet to turn towards Mecca in prayer (Sura 2:144, 149-150). For Nasr, this permission therefore provides a “mystical” link between Mecca and Jerusalem.

Second, while Muhammad was still living in Mecca, he reports that he took a Night Journey to a farther location in a vision, even though Jerusalem is never mentioned by name. According to MAS Abdel Haleem’s translation for Oxford University Press (2004), the two passages in the sura (or chapter), itself entitled Night Journey, read:

17:1 Glory to Him who made His servant travel by night from the sacred place of worship [Mecca] to the furthest place of worship [Jerusalem], whose surroundings We have blessed, to show him some of Our signs….

17:59 ... We send signs only to give warning. 60 Prophet, We have told you that your Lord knows all human beings. The vision We showed you was only a test for people….

This non-empirical revelation contains two basic ideas: First, as the context around verses 59 and 60 shows, Muhammad was undergoing some persecution in Mecca; the polytheists were asking for a sign of Muhammad’s prophethood. He replies that he is only an ordinary man, so he cannot perform them. The only sign Allah gives him is a vision. Second, this revelation parallels the one in 2:144, which permits Muhammad to take over the Kabah shrine before he actually does. The two passages are mutually supportive. Sura 17:1 reads: “...whose surroundings We have blessed”...Allah blesses the location (Jerusalem, though the Quran never says this), as He will bless Mecca a few years later. It should be noted that later tradition says that while in Jerusalem Muhammad was taken up to the seventh heaven from the Temple Mount, giving the vision extra significance for Muslims today.

This is why the al-Aqsa or “farthest” Mosque has been built on top of the Jewish Temple – not near the Temple. But is a non-historical revelation that does not mention Jerusalem by name sufficient justification for building the prime symbol of Islamic imperialism on the most significant Jewish holy site?

The third factor, says Nasr, is the Muslim belief in the Second Coming of Christ to Jerusalem. Therefore the city is sacred to Muslims and to Christians—according to Nasr. But this is misleading, for Muslim theology says that Jesus will return as a leader of Muslims and break the cross to show how wrong Christians have been, in following their Lord (Bukhari here, here and here; and Muslim no. 289). Also, these hadiths say nothing about Jerusalem. Rather, traditional belief says that he is supposed to return to Damascus, as this Islamic website asserts.

The political implications of these three non-empirical factors (the qiblah, the Night Vision, and the Second Coming) are enormous: For Muslims, they justify, even require ownership over Jerusalem. With these three factors combined, Jerusalem is now the third holiest site for Muslims and therefore a place of pilgrimage and alleged ownership.

According to this dubious epistemology (a term that means the study of how we acquire our knowledge), revelation takes priority over historical facts; indeed, revelation makes or creates history. Even Nasr accepts this disembodied, ephemeral epistemology:

Not all the Palestinians nor all the Arabs nor even all the over one billion two hundred million Muslims now living in the world could give Jerusalem away for no matter what amount of wealth, power, land, or any other worldly compensation. The attachment to Jerusalem is permanent and will last as long as human history itself. (p. 234)

His inference makes three controversial claims.

First, the words “Muslims living all over the world now living could not give Jerusalem away” assume that Jerusalem is in fact naturally be owned by the Muslims. Nasr is following the path or sunna of Muhammad, as the Prophet claimed Mecca before he actually owned it.

Second, those same words assume that “Muslims living all over the world” actually worry about Jerusalem and who controls it. However, more evidence of this worry needs to be offered. Do the millions in Indonesia or Malaysia, for example, care about not giving it away for any “amount of wealth, power, and, or any other worldly compensation.” Nasr speaks for too many people.

Third, Nasr brings up “human history” in the last sentence, but it is precisely this element that is missing in his three factors. Jerusalem is sacred to Muslims supposedly all over the world mainly due to non-empirical revelations that not everyone agrees on and that cannot be verified in history. And military conquest, which is embedded in history, is fleeting because another army may take over.

Accordingly, Waleed El-Ansary draws this outlandish conclusion about Jerusalem:

Perhaps the only ways to achieve peace in the Middle East would be for Jerusalem to be depoliticized. It should not be a political capital of either Israel or Palestine, but be given a unique status as a spiritually sovereign entity under a theocracy of the traditional representatives of the Abrahamic religions . . . . (“The Economics of Terrorism,” in Islam, Fundamentalism, and the Betrayal of Tradition, ed. J.E.B Lumbard, Bloomington: World Wisdom, 2004, p. 216).

However noble and lofty his conclusion may sound, it has never crossed my mind, as a Christian, that Jews should relinquish control of Jerusalem and let a representative theocracy rule over it. Why not?

A Christian perspective on Jerusalem

No evidence shows Jesus transforming Jerusalem (or any other city) into a holy site, and certainly not in the way Muhammad did to Mecca in AD 630—by the sword—nor did Jesus institute a required pilgrimage to a holy site.

It is true that Jesus wept over Jerusalem because as a whole she did not accept his comfort (Luke 19:38-44); and that he cleansed the Temple there with a whip (Luke 19:45-46), but he did this by himself, which shows he was making only a theological statement, not a military one. If his intentions were military, then he had enough disciples and crowds to call them to a holy war to try to conquer Jerusalem. It is also true that he foretold her destruction (Luke 21:20); that he instituted the first Eucharist there (Luke 22:7-23); that he died there (Luke 23:26-49); and that he was resurrected there (Luke 24:1-12).

All of these events are historically and empirically verifiable, as opposed to non-empirical revelations. Despite all of these events that are rooted in earth and not floating in the air, Jesus never once turned Jerusalem or declared that it should belong forever to his followers, the Christians.

Thus, Nasr misses the mark widely when he writes:

... [B]y virtue of accepting Christianity, Christians are duty bound to have a special attachment to Jerusalem as did their forefathers who even fought bloody wars known as the Crusades for over a century with the declared intention of regaining control of the holy city, who oriented their churches in Europe in its direction and who have made pilgrimage to the holy city during the past two millennia. (p. 234)

The key words are “duty bound.” Why does Nasr impose that duty? Bloody wars? Oriented European Medieval churches? Free-will pilgrimages? These are not nearly sufficient for the average Evangelical Christian anywhere in the world. It is difficult to imagine that Thai or Korean evangelicals, for example, ever feel duty bound for those reasons, and certainly not for non-existent New Testament reasons. Most American Christians do not feel duty bound.

It is one thing for a devout Christian to follow his heart on a personal pilgrimage to Jerusalem in order to derive spiritual benefit, but it is quite another to follow one’s alleged bound duty or command to go on one and to insist that Jerusalem should come under the political control of Christians, especially to the point of bloodshed.

And as to the Christian doctrine of the Second Coming (Nasr’s third factor in the previous section), Christians believe that Christ will return when the Father pleases. Whoever is squabbling over Jerusalem at that time will have to submit to his reign. True, professional Bible prophecy teachers believe that the Bible teaches Jews own Jerusalem, but they do so for a simpler reason than reading current events and matching them up with the Bible.

American Evangelicals, including Bible prophecy teachers, are faced with two grounds of epistemology on which to make some choices: (1) history, which says that the Jews own Jerusalem; (2) the non-evidence in the New Testament that says Christians should own Jerusalem. What later followers like the Crusaders did is another matter, for they do not set the genetic code for Christianity; only Christ and the New Testament authors do.

The vast majority of Evangelicals in America choose the first epistemological option simply because the Bible and history outside the Bible agree that Jews have lived there long before Christians and Muslims arrived on the scene.

It is true that King David took Jerusalem to unite the nation religiously (2 Samuel 5:1-9; 1 Chronicles 11:1-9), but what happened when the great empires marched over little Israel as a footpath when they were waging war on each other and other opponents? Assyria, Egypt, Babylonia, Persia, Greece, Romans, and Byzantines treated Israel as a side issue on the world stage, as they fought for global domination. In all that time, Jews remained in the land, and for a short while under Roman occupation the Jews were exiled from Jerusalem. But back they came. Why do not the northern Iraqis (ancient Assyrians) wish to immigrate to Israel today, in order to “reclaim” an ancient land? Why do not the Egyptians today immigrate to Israel? Why not southern Iraqis (ancient Babylonians)? Greeks? Italians? During all the long history of the holy city and land, Jews alone returned, while others remained—the remnant. If any people have a “mystical” claim on Jerusalem, it is Jews. Clear and simple history favors them, which is always easier to analyze and quantify than mysticism.

After an assortment of Islamic dynasties fought with each other and the Byzantines, eventually Israel became a mere outlying province (not an independent state or nation) of Turkey for centuries, until the Ottomans fought on the wrong side in World War I. They forfeited their ownership to the victors—Great Britain, in this case. Then in 1948 the ancient land of Israel became an independent Jewish nation with UN approval, thus restoring the land to its historical owners. Again Jews returned to their land and city, though some never left—the remnant.

However, even though Muhammad never set foot in Jerusalem in a verifiable way and even though the Quran never mentions this city by name, Christians and Jews should respect later Islamic revelation—respecting is different from agreeing on it—that says Jerusalem is a place of pilgrimage for Muslims. Fulfilling a pledge to take a non-violent pilgrimage to the Jewish sacred city harms no one materially or politically.

Muslims should understand why Bible-educated and Bible-believing Christians claim that the ownership of Jerusalem belongs to Jews. History trumps revelation, which is always better epistemologically when a revelation and its inferences can become politically charged and are not believed by everyone. Conclusion

Islam’s militant and mystical claim on Jerusalem falls short. This religion comes too late in history to assert ownership over the sacred city. Military victories are fleeting, so they are insufficient by themselves. And non-empirical revelations that lay claim over a city, but never mention the city by name, are also shaky and suspect—and they would be such even if they did name the city. Muhammad never set foot in Jerusalem in a down-to-earth way. Revelations should not trump verifiable and ancient historical facts. So Islam is on the wrong side of history.

As for New Testament Christianity, even though Jesus did indeed walk through Jerusalem in a down-to-earth way and was himself a Jew, we Christians are looking for a New Jerusalem in heaven (Revelation 21), instead of an earthly Jerusalem. We are on a pilgrimage to the City of God (as Augustine calls it), not to a mundane city. Therefore, it is not hard for us, following Jesus, to let plain ole history take priority over earth-bound and geopolitical “revelations.”

Christianity and Islam—two latecomers on the world stage—should therefore back off from any claim over Jerusalem (and the holy land, for that matter). Longstanding history does not favor them.

However, unvarnished, unembellished history says that Jews should be able to live in and govern their holy city in peace.

This article has a companion piece that may be read here.

[1] For a timeline of the Islamic Crusades and for explanations on why Muslims launched their Crusades in the first place and on why people converted to this late religion, go to this article.


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Israel
KEYWORDS: islam; jerusalem
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To: Bushbacker
what does this all have to do with American conservatism?

I'll miss you on the next Israel related thread!

61 posted on 12/05/2005 3:38:31 PM PST by Sabramerican (Bandar Bush for President)
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To: The Ghost of FReepers Past

Not even proponents of replacement theology?


62 posted on 12/05/2005 6:52:32 PM PST by GOPPachyderm
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To: Mamzelle; Bushbacker

Jerusalem, I am told, does not appear in the Koran. And Mohammed claimed to have ascended to heaven from a big rock. It was later interpreted to be the location of the current Dome of the Rock.


63 posted on 12/05/2005 6:54:44 PM PST by GOPPachyderm
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To: GOPPachyderm

Jerusalem, I am told, does not appear in the Koran. And Mohammed claimed to have ascended to heaven from a big rock. It was later interpreted to be the location of the current Dome of the Rock.

+++Not everything which is part of a religious tradition appears in a holy book. Some of Christianity is the product of tradition, rather than having appeared in the Gospels.

TThis whole line of reasoning is ridiculous. If Islam teaches that Jerusalem is a holy place, it is not for non-Muslims to say it must be in the Koran or it isn't valid.


64 posted on 12/05/2005 8:28:00 PM PST by Bushbacker (f----u)
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To: Bushbacker

Kind of "name it and claim it"?

I think it is relevant as to when the claim was made and what evidence is available to back it up. The assertion was made after Mohammed died and he wasn't in a position to refute just exactly where the dream was supposed to have happened.


65 posted on 12/05/2005 9:28:09 PM PST by GOPPachyderm
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To: GOPPachyderm

I think it is relevant as to when the claim was made and what evidence is available to back it up. The assertion was made after Mohammed died and he wasn't in a position to refute just exactly where the dream was supposed to have happened

____The claim has existed for over 1400 years...it is pointless and arrogant to deny it when it obviously is a important part of the religion of a billion people..even if we, as non-Muslims, find "holes" in it.


66 posted on 12/06/2005 4:50:38 AM PST by Bushbacker (f----u)
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To: iraqikurd

Mohammed was illiterate, and did not write the Quran/Koran. He recited. These recitations were usually in response to something he was resolving as the chief of a bandit of caravan raiders.

Hundreds of years after his death, his successors wanted to put together his recitations. This was done by memory or by attribution, but at different times in different places. That is why there are different versions in Arabic. These variants are suppressed, because the religious elite prefer to claim that the Koran was transcribed without error, by the grace of Allah.

Oh, an interesting thing about old documents. Quite often the best and most accepted versions have no old copies. That is because the versions used were used up, and copies were made. The versions that were thought to be unsuitable for use, through errors in translation or transcription, would not be used, but would also be rarely thrown away. Hence the scripture copy found in Sinai [synaniticus?] is a very old version, but has several variations from the most commonly accepted text. That doesn't necessarily mean that the new ones have the errors....
but


67 posted on 12/07/2005 7:51:07 PM PST by Donald Meaker (You don't drive a car looking through the rear view mirror, but you do practice politics that way.)
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Comment #68 Removed by Moderator

To: SJackson
THE MYSTERIES OF ISLAM  EXPLAINED!

Islam has long been a great mystery to the west, even to most scholars on
the subject. But not to worry!I know ALL ABOUT these things and I'd be more than happy to 'splain.

Long long ago, about fifteen hundred years, there lived an unemployed
illiterate pedophile maniac named Mohammad.
Mo had a lot of social issues and low self esteem.

~Mo Hammad~

The local goat market was in a slump and Mo was at a loss on how
to make a living and improve his lot, he lived in a cave out back of his dad's
place and was not happy. Mo hit upon the idea of picking one of the many deities
available and promoting this deity into the supreme god of gods with him as its prophet and spokesman.

He was a pretty shrewd fellow for an illiterate unemployed pedophile maniac and realized this
could be big mojo for him and end his poverty and pathetic miserableness.
Folks in Mo's neighborhood were pretty gullible and prone to believe anything at all.

In a local holy place called Mecca the folks worshipped all kinds of different
gods in a sort of holy grotto and had set up shrines to all the varied gods and stuff.

Mo hied himself to Mecca and found he thought highly of allah, the moon god.
Allah was in fact a rock, or a stone if you will, and was kind of an obscure god because.. well, ..it was just a rock.

Allah had two daughters who were pebbles and a bit later a great schism
erupted over whether it was OK to worship these pebbles too,
seeing as they were the daughters of allah.. turned out it was not OK.

The magical allah stone!

There was even a classical but obscure arabic song composed at
the time about allah the moon god (stone) which can be heard here.

Having selected which deity he would promote, Mo decided that a supreme god
of gods like allah the stone would need to have some pretty serious rules
and regulations and stuff if Mo were to truly profit from being a
prophet. So he sat his illiterate unemployed pedophile maniac butt
down and hacked out a whole crackhead's ranting of illogic and hate
and general oppresive negativity & fanaticism and called it the word
of allah, the rock, as told to him.. Mo, the prophet. (He had to dictate
this to a scribe, he could only manage to draw stick figures in the dirt by himself.)

More or less allah the rock's message (as told by holy Mo) was pretty much
about how only those folks who believed allah the rock's message
(as told by holy Mo) were any good at all and they should live more or less
like dogs and obey very strictly the laws laid down in allah the rock's
message (as told by holy Mo) and these were mostly about being a slave to
allah the rock and treating women like dirty boots and making obeissance to
allah the rock several times a day and performing obsessive-compulsive washing
acts and other kind of gross stuff that I won't go into right here or now.

Also, allah the stone gave the faithful all kinds of dietary restrictions.
Some say these may have been prompted by young Mo having been rejected
by a particular barnyard animal,
the scriptures are unclear.

All these things, while seeming kind of outrageous, were only for the believers, the faithful.
For the non-believers in allah the rock's message (as told by holy Mo), things were much worse.

According to allah the rock and holy Mo if you were a believer it would be
perfectly OK to lie, cheat, steal, rob, subjugate, tax, plunder, kill,
rape, mutilate, immolate, dismember, impale, decapitate, disembowel,
strangle, impoverish, enslave, kick, spit on or damn to hell anyone who was not
a believer.

The crowd went wild!

Oh, how the local folks ate this up! Like gravy on
biscuits they were all over it.

Amazingly, these folks for the most part don't drink any alcohol.
I find that incredible because it usually takes about 3/4 of a
bottle of Tequila for me to get anywhere even close to a mind-set like that.

Mo decided to go national with his shpiel about allah the rock's message
so he killed an elderly lemon vendor and stole his donkey and went on tour.

In every town and tent city and caravan Mo visited, he sold his fabrications
to all the goatherders and tentmakers and sheepshaggers he could and they mostly ate it up..
Mo was enthused and hired more scribes to jot down more rantings about how allah the rock commanded it's slaves to make a holy war whenever possible against all who disbelieve the supremacy of allah the rock.

The crowd went wild!

Ultimately, Mo was highly sucessful in a local fashion in convicing the various
goatherders and tentmakers and sheepshaggers of his time to convert completely to
the subjugation & worship of allah the rock and it's message (as told by holy Mo).
The faithful managed to enshrine the actual rock that embodies allah in the holy
area of Mecca, and they built a huge giant cube around it and now it has magical genies inside.



Mo's followers gave the name "islam" to this new exciting religion
of hate and oppression and mindless slavery to a moon rock that isn't even from the moon.
"Islam" roughly translated means: "We like the moon!"

Mo was mighty pleased with the way things worked out until he went to hell
but thats another story. Ultimately whole bunches of folks adopted the sacred
teachings of allah the rock and holy Mo.. they gather around the giant cube full
of magic genies and declare themselves slaves while prostrating suggestively.
It's quite a scene!

Also it is a fact that allah the rock left another piece of himself
lying about in Mecca strategically located near a bunch of vendors.. this holy
attraction is billed as the "black stone of allah" and is encased in
a sphincter-like arrangement into which the devout may place their heads.
Mo would have been proud!

I'm glad to have had this opportunity for us all to
learn more about fascinating islam. I'm sure there is even yet more to the story but
I've droned on long enough. Have a wonderful day and please remember that while allah
the rock might be an awesome powerful stone or whatever..
he is really quite afraid of the US Marine Corps.

Carry on!

This shameless infidel posting is brought to you by:
ALLAH brand urinal cakes.(tm)

May peace be upon him!

69 posted on 12/07/2005 9:09:01 PM PST by WhirlwindAttack (kill them all and let allah sort em out)
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To: iraqikurd

Well, it is worse than that. There was no written Arabic language at the time of Mohammed.

Some 200 years later, they had used the syriac-aramaic script to write arabic, so one could write the Koran in arabic.

If you review the arabic text, there are a number of words which make no sense in arabic. but in syrio-aramaic there are words which make sense. This seems to me to be pretty strong evidence that the Koran was written at 'cusp' time, using arabic words, syrio-aramaic letters, and when the writer needed to stretch, to express a concept for which there was no arabic word, he used a convenient syrio-aramaic word.

That cusp occured 200 years after Mohammed. Besides, if Mohammed wrote it, then why are there different texts? Smells like the "skull of St.Anne" in Twain's Innocents Abroad.


70 posted on 12/08/2005 7:23:38 PM PST by Donald Meaker (You don't drive a car looking through the rear view mirror, but you do practice politics that way.)
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Comment #71 Removed by Moderator

To: iraqikurd

Most great men are created ex post facto. For example, take Socrates. Death by hemlock is excrutiating. Plato airbrushed that out, with his "I owe a cock to [the god of healing].

So, Plato lied, or, more likely, he ducked out of town until the uproar died down.

Even Robert E. Lee was created after the fact. He surmounted defeat by taking the blame upon himself, and surmouted victory by giving all the credit to Jackson. Still, before then he was called "Evacuating Lee" after his first campaign, and yes, the rudest aspect of evacuating was meant.

Oh, but we forget all that now.


72 posted on 12/09/2005 8:22:40 PM PST by Donald Meaker (You don't drive a car looking through the rear view mirror, but you do practice politics that way.)
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To: iraqikurd

There is a way to know. If one asserts that there was a written arabic language before the Koran, then one has to produce some example, or a copy. There is none. NONE.

The stories of the writing of the Bible are also pushed back to give authority. Genesis was written later than 600BC, because it mentions camels as domestic animals.

My understanding of the Bible was the oldest part is the story of gay blades David and Jonathan. Of the Law, the first written was Deuteronmy, in the reign of king Josiah. The others, Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Leviticus were written later, as pious frauds, to expand upon the doctrines of the religious elite of its day.

This kind of thing happens all the time. A modern example is the expansion of Star Wars to 1,2 and 3 after 4,5, and 6 had been out for a while.

Judges was written to justify why Solomon, the younger son of the former Philistine lord David, should rule the tribes. Each tribe has a hero, and all were combined into a narrative thata separated them from the tribes outside the rule of Solomon.

Exodus was then written as a back story, as to why the tribes were separate from the others.

The bible is not history, and never was. It is no more valid a record of the actual events than the propaganda of Gobbels was a record of WWII.
'


73 posted on 12/25/2005 12:22:48 PM PST by Donald Meaker (You don't drive a car looking through the rear view mirror, but you do practice politics that way.)
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To: Sabramerican

The funny is the destruction of Jerusalem by Vespacian and or Titus didn't include the Roman fortress. When Jerusalem was desolate, the Roman base was the only building not destroyed.

Later, when the Arabs took over they build their furthest mosque on the site of the Roman barracks and Stables. The foundation of the Jerusalem mosque is horse manure....Literally.


74 posted on 12/25/2005 12:29:47 PM PST by Donald Meaker (You don't drive a car looking through the rear view mirror, but you do practice politics that way.)
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