Posted on 12/04/2005 4:18:42 PM PST by wjersey
PHILADELPHIA-December 4, 2005 - By gradually adding hybrids to this city's vehicle fleet, James Muller knows he's helping to save the environment. What he doesn't know is whether switching to the more expensive "green" vehicles will ever save any taxpayer dollars.
The city just bought 20 new hybrid Ford Escapes to add to the six Toyota Priuses already in its 6,000-vehicle fleet. Muller, Philadelphia's fleet manager, said officials are doing it to improve air quality, but that the upfront costs definitely take a bigger hit on city coffers. "That's what we're finding with the initial cost ... it doesn't wash out," he said. "You're actually paying more money."
It's only been a year or two since many cities across the country started adding hybrids to their fleets, but officials say the initial costs can be tough to bear. And they simply don't know whether, over the long run, the vehicles will end up costing more, the same or less than those fueled by gasoline or diesel.
Officials in Ann Arbor, Mich., decided not to add hybrids to their fleet after determining the costs would outweigh the benefits. Ann Arbor has other types of alternate-fuel vehicles, but found that hybrids just weren't cost-effective, said David Konkle, the city's energy coordinator.
"Economic times have been very tough and we were facing the toughest budget year that I've seen in the 15-plus years that I've been here at the city," Konkle said.
He found that hybrids would cost the city about $8,000 more than other cars it would use and save $300 to $500 a year in gas. "That takes more than the life of the car to make that $8,000 difference up," he said.
Hybrid vehicles get better mileage than their regular gasoline-powered counterparts because the hybrid switches back and forth between an electric motor and a gasoline engine.
In New York, hybrids make sense because the city now requires the purchase of the cleanest vehicle available, said Mark Simon, director of alternative fuel programs.
Simon estimates that the city is spending $3,000 to $6,000 more per hybrid vehicle, and saving $400 to $500 a year in fuel.
"It was not our mandate to save money," he said. "They're expecting us to pay more for a cleaner tailpipe."
In Oregon, Dan Clem has purview over 3,000 vehicles – 123 of them hybrids – as fleet manager for the state's Department of Administration Services.
Whether the state saves money in the long run depends on a number of factors, including how prices change and how well the hybrids hold up, he said.
"If they don't last, then they won't pencil out," Clem said, adding that they appear to be holding up well so far. "It could all go bad if and when the battery packs go bad."
Manufacturers say prices are bound to come down as more are manufactured.
"It costs the city more money to put out recycling bins, but it is the proper thing to do," said Dan Bedore, spokesman for Ford, which makes about 20,000 hybrid Ford Escapes a year. "Eventually, as hybrids become more popular, the price has to come down."
Brian Wynne, president the Electric Drive Transportation Association, said his group is working to try to encourage fleets to go hybrid. While hybrids are a low-risk technology, he said, the price does cause some governments to think hard before buying them.
"Yes, there is a premium associated with buying a hybrid vehicle at this point," said Wynne, whose group's members include vehicle and equipment manufacturers, energy suppliers and others. "I don't think there's hesitancy, I think there's diligence."
He pointed to efforts to bring down the costs, including government incentives and tax credits and increasing the overall production of vehicles and parts.
Bradley Berman, editor of hybridcars.com, a consumer-information site, said fleet managers need to look at how much they typically drive a vehicle and how long they keep it.
"Obviously, the more you drive the more you save and the more compelling the financial equation is," Berman said. Cities such as Seattle and Pittsburgh have made the move to hybrid buses, a use that some say is perfect for a hybrid because of all the stop-and-go, heavy-duty driving.
Brett Smith, assistant director of manufacturing, engineering and technology for the Center for Automotive Research, in Ann Arbor, said it can take five to seven years to start saving on a car driven 12,000 miles a year.
"Certainly there are governments and communities that will make that commitment," he said.
In Garfield County, Colo., County Manager Ed Green said the fleet's 11 hybrid cars are meant to set an example for the community as a whole. But not all governments are in a position to be able to make that statement.
With the reality of layoffs facing Ann Arbor, Konkle said, the expense of hybrids was pretty much out of the question this year.
"Is this year a good year to demonstrate our greenness by buying a hybrid vehicle?" he said. "And the answer was, 'no."'
"Gasoline-electric hybrids cannot repeal the law of thermodynamics.
They can only save fuel by shutting off the engine at idle/slow speeds, and recovering a little bit of energy on braking. At higher speeds, with less braking, by definition, they are less efficient due to their higher weight (and less-efficient gasoline engines), compared to an equivalent non-hybrid car.
This makes them ideal for delivery vehicles, or city cars.
The Car & Driver guy is woefully misinformed if he thinks there will be no diesels in the future. The only problem is going to be expense, although the cost of urea injection is still less than the hybrid gear.
The negative aspect of hybrids on the highway is not power, as all modern cars have more than enough power; it is efficiency, as explained above. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.
I have no objection to people wanting to buy hybrids; I only object to people trying to prevent me from being able to buy diesels."
"saving money at the stoplight makes sense. It is pretty cool to sit in total silence at the light, or to have someone ask--"Is it started?" when you give them a ride."
I took to turning off the ignition at lights on my old minivan to save gas when gas was at its highest - went from 17 to 19 mpg.
you do need a good battery when you do this.
and the $9500 extra cost?
Just think how many condoms that would supply to Uganda!
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/transportation/203509_metro13.html?source=mypi
***$47 MILLION MORE THAN WE NEEDED TO PAY*** 235 BUSES X $200K MORE THAN THE OLD BUSES
Monday, December 13, 2004
Hybrid buses' fuel economy promises don't materialize
Older models have gotten better mpg
By JANE HADLEY
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER
Expensive new hybrid diesel-electric buses that were portrayed by King County Metro as "green" heroes that would use up to 40 percent less fuel than existing buses have fallen far short of that promise.
In fact, at times, the New Flyer hybrid articulated buses have gotten worse mileage than the often-maligned 1989 dual-mode Breda buses they are replacing. Yet the hybrid buses cost $200,000 more each than a conventional articulated diesel bus.
The disappointing results are a far cry from the rosy predictions made by officials.
In May of this year, when Metro held a public event to herald the arrival of the first of the new hybrid buses, County Executive Ron Sims said they would save 750,000 gallons of fuel a year over the Bredas.
Metro was the first agency in the country to buy a 60-foot articulated bus with a hybrid diesel-electric technology. It ordered 235 of them, 213 for itself for $152 million and 22 for Sound Transit. Metro now has the largest fleet of hybrid buses in the world.
Hybrid diesel-electric buses use a battery-powered electric engine to assist a diesel engine. The batteries, carried on top of the bus, are charged both by the diesel engine and by capturing energy from braking action. The electric engine is especially valuable during acceleration from 0 to 12 mph, when a diesel engine would otherwise be gulping fuel, said Michael Voris Metro's procurement supervisor.
Of Metro's active fleet of nearly 1,400 buses, 1,005 are conventional diesel buses, 210 are hybrid diesel-electric, 144 are trolley buses and 28 are Bredas.
Despite the significantly higher cost and the underwhelming fuel efficiency of its hybrid buses, Metro had little choice but to get them, said Jim Boon, Metro's vehicle maintenance manager. That's because they are the only feasible bus Metro can use when it begins sharing the downtown bus tunnel with Sound Transit's light rail line in 2009.
Besides, the hybrids have their good points, Boon said. The hybrid fleet as a whole is saving $3 million a year in maintenance costs over the Bredas. And they're quieter than regular diesel buses and faster than the Bredas on hills and the highway.
They also have very low emissions -- as do all the new buses Metro is buying these days, hybrid or not.
But the expected fuel efficiency has not been there.
[snip]
Here are my hybrid questions:
What is the environmental impact of those batteries?
1. Those will need to be replaced. How do the heavy metals used in their manufacturing impact the environment?
2. And what about cars that will meet an early end when it's not economical to replace the batteries - doesn't a shorter car life mean an environmental impact?
We like ours too, for many of the same reasons. On a recent trip to Florida from Delaware, even driving at 85 - 90mph, we could never get the mpg to drop below 41, and the "Nav Lady" is cool.
The ultimate geek car ...
about the batteries,
only a fraction of their capacity is used,
since the batteries don't do all that much,
the batteries are expected to last the life of the car
He looked at me like I was from Mars.
I can't wait to see the (underreported) stats on the repair costs of these things.
Yes they will, as soon as low sulpher fuel comes out. With particulate filters, as diesels in Europe have, modern diesels can be very clean.
-A8
I have been averaging 50+ the last several tanks. The car encourages you to drive more efficiently, like some sort of game. I don't have the nav system on mine, I have a free standing Garmin Quest, which does a great job.
For some of the other posters, the battery is warranted for 8 years 100K miles. I don't drive my cars that long, usually, so that issue won't matter to me. From what I hear, no batteries have needed to be replaced on any of the Priuses, either the first version or the 2004+ models.
Thanks for that. Hmm. Early adaptor. I may have to use it.
To be fair, the whole cycle should be looked at.
Probably the most environmentally-friendly choice would be a used small car. You might put out a bit more emissions, and perhaps get slightly less fuel economy, but you're saving all the manufacturing impacts of building a new car. On the other hand, if everyone did this, it might not be healthy for the world economy.
I went half-way, and got a used mid-size diesel car. I just have a mild dislike for gasoline engines.
Why would that be? Modern diesel pickups have engines with more-than-adequate horsepower, and ludicrous amounts of torque.
And modern turbodiesel cars make gasoline-powered cars almost obsolete. The current Mercedes E320 CDI I-6 already does 0-60 in 6.7 seconds or so, and the forthcoming V-6 will be even faster. In Europe, automakers are actually beginning to introduce diesel sport models.
And then there's this.
Sure, the old diesels were kinda slow...but that was 20 years ago! Although, at the time, I was getting close to the 50 mpg with a Nissan diesel that everyone is so excited about now.
Europe isn't right about much, but they're right about their fondness for diesels. Just about half the cars sold there currently are oilburners.
And Mercedes is thinking of introducing a diesel hybrid. C&D described this as the "worst" of all possible worlds. The complexity of hybrids mated to an engine that won't pass emission standards in a couple of years.
I've driven pickups with diesels. They are noisy, knock and smell. I am around those Dodge diesels all the time and the black particulates spew out the tailpipes and make a lot of racket.
Diesels work fine in over the road trucks. But in cars, I don't see them as anything other than a dead end.
Which only proves that they are incompetent and misinformed.
In fact, Ford has developed the Mercury Meta One Hybrid Crossover vehicle, which is a diesel hybrid. The emissions pass the PZEV (Practically Zero Emissions Vehicle) standard.
The next logical step is to embed induction coils or maybe high current charging dots in special high volume freeway lanes. That would reduce the amount of hydrocarbon consumption at freeway speeds and reduce the size of the battery needed. On braking the power could be sold back to the road for other users rather than having to store it in a battery. Combine that with computer controlled virtual train formation and we can double the capacity of a lane and reduce wind drag.
Is that for the U.S. market?
LOL! Unless you are talking about a country other than the U.S., I'd love to know what on earth you are reading. Ethanol producers use only a small fraction of the corn produced in this country. The plants are located in the middle of the "corn belt;" glaciers took care of any forestation problem well before ethanol plants came around.
I'm thrilled that a convenience store just 2 blocks from my house just added an E85 pump! I drive an '04 Explorer that is an FFV; hadn't been able to use ethanol (other than 10%) prior to last week.
Ethanol really could be the ultimate "green" fuel, if the naysayers would get off of the 20-year-old myths that they constantly push.
Farmer fertilizes with manure (rather than fossil fuel-based nitrogen). Farmer uses biodiesel in tractors, and sun energy to grow the crop.
Farmer then sells corn to ethanol plants, which have now become so efficient that they take only the needed elements from the corn, while preserving most of the product for use in livestock feed.
Cows eat the feed and poop...cycle starts over again.
As an added bonus, we get to defund the terrorist-supporting Middle Eastern cabal. What's not to like?
Before anyone starts with the "mileage" crap. Ethanol needs to be $.30/gallon less than unleaded to equalize. I paid $1.59 today. In any event, we would probably SAVE money at the same price if we could quit sending bribe money to the OPEC nations; not to mention the jobs and security that come from energy independence.
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