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See you in Hell - one in three clergy believe in damnation
scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com ^ | 12-4-5 | JEREMY WATSON

Posted on 12/03/2005 11:41:20 PM PST by WKB

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To: hosepipe
....."Baptism is not a cleansing, it a ceremonial DEATH"....

Thank you, I can't keep teaching the Bible to these people so I'll leave it to others to try and open their eyes. The fundamentals of Christianity have almost been lost to the "feel good" ear ticklers. Almost every line SuziQ and ARridgerunner make,shows their rejection of the the One they purport to follow. They even admit to "cheery picking" the verses they want to believe. I think they are more determined to argue with me than learn what their Lord has for them.

Not understanding being "Born Again" should shake them to their foundation since Jesus said we must be born again to see Heaven. They have been duped by churches that spread the religion of "traditions of men." I'm a firm believer the Holy Spirit calls those He will and I can only report the Gospel. What they do with it is their business. I took a Bible study once called "Experiencing God" by Blackaby, and one of the most profound things in the lesson was "Things only God can do". One of them was making people think about Him and long to learn about the Lover of their soul. You can preach till the cows come home and only those that have the Holy Spirit calling them will listen. That's why you can hear the most earth moving sermon you've ever heard and only a few or none go to the front. The ones that were called go to the front, the others think about what's for lunch. To teach that your parent can save you as a child or the denomination saves you is just blasphemy,pure and simple. The baptism SuziQ spoke of is really a ceremony by the parents to dedicate their child to the Lord. It's for the parents, not the child. I can promise God that I will do everything I can to bring the child up with the teaching and admonition of the Lord, but they still may turn out to be an axe murderer. This mistake is why Catholics can murder and fornicate( mafia) and still have a Catholic funeral with Bishops and such extolling their virtues. They believe somehow being Catholic is enough.

Well, I have other thing to do so I'll let others take over.

141 posted on 12/06/2005 8:11:05 AM PST by chuckles
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To: ElTianti

That is the question isn't it.


142 posted on 12/06/2005 8:48:07 AM PST by luckystarmom
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To: ARridgerunner
[ My paradise isn't in this world. ]

Paradise is a metaphor..
Its not what it is, its what it represents..

143 posted on 12/06/2005 9:33:17 AM PST by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole..)
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To: chuckles; Alamo-Girl; betty boop
[ You can preach till the cows come home and only those that have the Holy Spirit calling them will listen. ]

Seems you have hauled off and forgot about the Lurkers.. For every poster; there are many Lurkers on FR.. Nonsense countered by Sense is a testimony not to what you believe but to WHO you ARE.. Because its who you are that is the testimony to what you believe.. not the other way around..

What you do speaks far louder than anything you have ever said(posted).. Every human ever born is a PREACHER.. preaching LOUDLY by what he/she does.. Same here with posting(speaking).. Posting here is a kind of "Doing and a Speaking" all at once... Every post is a preaching..

Some plant seed, another waters, but God gives the increase.. i.e. suggest parable of the sower. Matt. Ch 13. In, Planting seed, who knows what will come up.. first tender leaves, then the plant identifys itself, next bleating, finally hoofbeats.. but the seed planter is off to another field and sees, often times, none of this drama..

Is God COOL or WHAT.?..

144 posted on 12/06/2005 10:05:32 AM PST by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole..)
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To: hosepipe
Every human ever born is a PREACHER.. preaching LOUDLY by what he/she does.. Same here with posting(speaking)..

Indeed. Thus Christ has informed us in Matthew 7 that a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. The fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance.

Allowing the Spirit to bring forth these fruits through us is our purpose. (John 15) The message is Him.

145 posted on 12/06/2005 10:46:39 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: WKB

"More than a third of Scotland's clergy still believe in the literal existence of Hell as a place, according to a new survey."

For heaven to exist - hell must as well.


146 posted on 12/06/2005 10:48:22 AM PST by edcoil (Reality doesn't say much - doesn't need too)
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To: GSlob
Not nonsense at all. How could you be an atheist unless there were no God? That would make God an atheist. Too deep for you?
Wednesday is delicious but Thursday, now there is a day to titillate the senses.
147 posted on 12/06/2005 1:15:58 PM PST by Louis Foxwell (amen)
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To: betty boop

Betty,
I am touched by the depth of your witness. Please know that my prior comments were not directed at you but were very much my expression of gratitude for the power of your words.


148 posted on 12/06/2005 1:19:08 PM PST by Louis Foxwell (amen)
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To: 185JHP
Flames in hell are either "real" or worse. Imagery always points to something greater than itself, never something less than itself. If the flames are not physical, then they are metaphorical, and therefore physical flames would be a relief.

That said, no one is in hell except those who choose it, and those who choose it do so eternally (that is, they will, through eternity, defy God and choose hell, awful as it is, over the offer of grace).

The idea of God rubbing cosmic hands in glee over crackling souls who "would give anything for one more chance to trust in Jesus" is an unbiblical myth. It is either "thy will be done," or "my will be done." On the final day, God simply gives each what we have asked for, and each continually chooses that progressive path thru eternity.

149 posted on 12/06/2005 1:25:09 PM PST by chronic_loser
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To: chuckles
You were not at the age of accountability."

tables turned. Chapeter and verse, please? There is no doctrine contained in the bible about an "age of accountability." while i do not buy that baptism washes away original sin, neither am i sure about a system of thought imposed from without on an "age of accountability." it ain't in the bible, although some inferences may be made about people not knowing right from left hands and all, but those are VERY sketchy.

150 posted on 12/06/2005 1:33:32 PM PST by chronic_loser
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To: chuckles
There is no purgatory, limbo, or whatever. The Bible tells us to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. When you die, you see God, period. That is a bad thing if you aren't saved. If you are saved, it is the purpose of your being.

So where are all the people who lived before Jesus was born? They can't be "saved" because they can't believe Jesus died for their sins because there was no Jesus. Are they in heaven? If so, how did they get there without being saved? Are they in hell? If so, why?

151 posted on 12/06/2005 1:42:38 PM PST by Tokra (I think I'll retire to Bedlam.)
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To: chuckles
There is no second chance given either. What you do with Jesus while alive on earth is it, period.

Sez who?

152 posted on 12/06/2005 1:44:09 PM PST by Tokra (I think I'll retire to Bedlam.)
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To: SuziQ
I could make the choices that KEPT me in that Love.

alas, I can make no such choices. my track record sucks so badly that have come to the conclusion that my choices can do nothing but cut me off from that Love. That leaves us with two possibilities: You are a far far far better person than I (that much is doubtless true), and are able by the power of your choices to please God, or 2) You have a very unbiblical view of the standards that one must "choose" in order to please God. I would submit that all of our activity (not to mention our thoughts and desires) are so lacking and full of filth before God that he views them as filthy rags (the actual Hebrew term is that of a menstrual rag).

that is what bible bangers are talking about being "saved" from. You are, in essence, saying you will stand on your record. I am saying that your record is what you need saving FROM. I certainly need saving from my record, and I mean TODAY's record, not just back when I was "bad."

153 posted on 12/06/2005 1:44:14 PM PST by chronic_loser
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To: chronic_loser
So if I don't explicity state that "Jesus is my lord savior", it's eternal torture for me? Even if I've gone out of my way to lead a decent life, treat others kindly and honestly?
Sounds like a scene from the Godfather, where you gotta kiss the hand or the big goons come after you...
154 posted on 12/06/2005 1:50:00 PM PST by blowfish
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To: WKB
Ephesians 2:8 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— Ephesians 2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast.


What good is it, my brothers if you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you. If a brother is naked and lacks daily food. If one of you says to them, 'Go in peace, keep warm and eat your fill', and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. (James 2:14-16)

How do you reconcile these statements?

155 posted on 12/06/2005 1:56:45 PM PST by Tokra (I think I'll retire to Bedlam.)
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To: luckystarmom
I've wondered this myself. We are given free will, we can choose to follow what we believe, or not. But can we choose what we believe.

I've come to the conclusion that part of human nature is to deny truth..I'm pretty sure that gets you in the lost club, but that might not be all of it.

I have a hard time believing devout, God loving Jews will roast because I was a terrible witness to them.

156 posted on 12/06/2005 1:58:39 PM PST by Dead Dog
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To: Tokra
So where are all the people who lived before Jesus was born? They can't be "saved" because they can't believe Jesus died for their sins because there was no Jesus. Are they in heaven? If so, how did they get there without being saved? Are they in hell? If so, why?

that is a REALLY good question. the biblical answer is that those "saved" before Jesus was born were "saved" by trusting in Jesus, just not by that name. The "promise" that a savior would come is as old as the fall from grace. God promised a coming "seed" from man would destroy the works of the serpent and be wounded in the process. Adam responded to this with FAITH in the coming one by name his wife "havaah" (eve) which means "Mother of the life." It is fairly clear that Eve thought her first child was the coming one in her exultation about the seed come. It was not to be and scenes of murder and division ensued. The rest of the Old Testament is simply a fleshing out and development of that original promise..... THE SEED OF THE WOMAN IS COMING. Sometimes it was a promise prefigured by a spotless sacrifice, butchered as sins were confessed over it, sometimes as a coming "eternal" King whose lineage was both from David and yet David called him "Lord," sometimes it was a "suffering servant," sometimes in a "Son of Man" who was also God, (Jesus really pissed off the Pharisees by saying "that is ME, guys). All these were like slighty out of focus snapshots of the coming one. Every person before Jesus who was "saved" was delivered by TRUSTING in that promised one who would come and be "a blessint to all nations." Even Abraham, the father of the Jewish nation, was saved himself by TRUSTING in the promise of God that thru him the "seed" would come.

The answer, then, is that those before Jesus were "saved" by trusting in the savior who was to come, just as we are "saved" by trusting in the Savior who has already come. There is no difference in the object of our trust, just the clarity with which he is presented.

Hope that helps.

157 posted on 12/06/2005 2:00:10 PM PST by chronic_loser
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To: Tokra
How do you reconcile these statements?

Like this:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1533673/posts?page=98#98

Thanks for verifying what I said.
There is nothing in those verses that says
works are required to receive or maintain
salvation, only that Faith and good works
go hand in hand.
Thanks again and Merry Christmas


People who believe that "works" are "required"
to attain or maintain salvation are in effect
saying that the finished work of the Lord
Jesus Christ on the Cross and his Resurrection
are not enough. That somehow they can do what
God the Father and God the Son were unable to do.
To me that is the height of hypocrisy.
My Jesus saves to the uttermost. I do the works that I do because I love Jesus not of a sense of fear, guilt or obligation. Merry Christmas
158 posted on 12/06/2005 2:10:01 PM PST by WKB (If you can't dazzle them with brilliance.. then Baffle them with BS)
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To: blowfish
Even if I've gone out of my way to lead a decent life, treat others kindly and honestly?

Good question. It all depends on what you mean by "decent life." If you compare yourself to me, doubtless you have led an exemplary life, and if I or another man were the standard, doubtless you would be issued into heaven.

The question, though, is "how good do you have to be?" and the answer that Jesus gave was "PERFECT." He said to one guy who asked this question that he should love God with all his mind (that means think no bad thoughts), all his strength (do no bad deeds), and all his heart (wish no evil things). If THAT is the standard, I commit enough sins to send me to hell every day before I shave. If THAT is the standard, I am sunk, and so are you, no matter how many times we try to be kind or honest. The fact that you bring up those things (doubtless true about you, as compared to me, the biggest asshole in the universe sometimes), shows that you are made in the image of God and you "want" to be good. And if you really tried and got it down to only one bad thought, one bad deed, one bad action per day for the next, say 40 years, then you still have over 40,000 indictments against you for violation of God's law which is "be perfect, as God is perfect." (of course, we do lots more than three a day).

THAT is why Christians say "ONLY thru Jesus." Your record of goodness cannot save you. You really don't want to trust in your record, that is what you need saving FROM. You need another, perfect sinless record, that you did not create, but that is given you free for the asking. So do I.

159 posted on 12/06/2005 2:12:38 PM PST by chronic_loser
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To: chronic_loser
So Jesus is just a proxy? I just say "I'm with him" and they let me through the door? But otherwise I have to be perfect or it's the eternal torture thing?
This isn't making sense to me.
160 posted on 12/06/2005 2:17:57 PM PST by blowfish
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