Posted on 12/03/2005 6:18:54 AM PST by Right Wing Professor
Yet another example that absolutely convinces me that creationists and IDers are intrinsically liberals. To wit:
Liberals love to be the victim.
Iders: poor us, we can't get our papers published because all the mean scientists are against us.
ml1954: poor us, we can't get our proposals funded because all of the mean scientists are against us.
Liberals believe in entitlements and "rights" that they don't have to work for, such as free health care, free child care, free education, free damn near everything without having to work for anything.
IDers: we want to have our Discovery Institute paid for and our researchers funded but we don't have to publish a single paper reporting on our "reseach". We are entitled to equal time with those, those .... Darwinists (who just happen to have published nearly 50,000 peer reviewed papers in that same 10 years).
A rather poor use of the Appeal to Authority fallacy.
Do you think Arthur C. Clark's 2001 a space Odyssey is a worthy subject to be discussed in a science class? The idea that a monolith acting in a Deus Ex Machina fashion acted on a select group of proto human species? Some ID types argue for ET intervention and or seeding of life on the planet, though I doubt Clarke would have had anything to do with them.
Or is 2001 more a discussion for philosophy class? Let's say 2001 is a good subject for discussion in science class...then what is so different about 2001 as opposed to a little discussion of the possible divine guidance where the origin of species is concerned?
ml1954: poor us, we can't get our proposals funded because all of the mean scientists are against us.
I'm not sure how to take your post. FYI, I'm on your side. If you are confusing me with that other ml poster, please see my tag line. I'm really going to have to start using the sarcasm tag.
My point was the IDers/Creationists want to have their theory become the governing theory in science (the Wedge document). If they get their way, "Proposal 3" will become one of the screening criteria for allocating research funds.
Sorry /embarrassed
Sorry /embarrassed
LOL. No need. It's why longshadow gave me the tagline (for free!). The responses I got were a lot rougher and more confusing (to me) before I got it.
You may call BS Repellant a fallacy if you like, but flat-footed, impotent stutterers are living proof of it's effectiveness.
Now, I'm tired of playing in this sandbox so I'm outta here and off to my dinner engagement. Ummmmm, ummmmm. :)
No. Let me go further: Hell, no!
The idea that a monolith acting in a Deus Ex Machina fashion acted on a select group of proto human species? Some ID types argue for ET intervention and or seeding of life on the planet, though I doubt Clarke would have had anything to do with them.
Yes, some ID'ers claim just that. So do the Raelians. Making crackpot claims is precisely what makes them complete whackos/psychoceramics/nutjobs/crazies/IDiots in the first place.
Or is 2001 more a discussion for philosophy class?
Creative writing class. Or maybe science/speculative fiction class.
Let's say 2001 is a good subject for discussion in science class...
Let's not and say we did.
then what is so different about 2001 as opposed to a little discussion of the possible divine guidance where the origin of species is concerned?
Absolutely nothing. Just as absolutely nothing distinguishes it from Last Thursdayism or Invisible, Pink Unicornism or the Great, Green ArkleSeizure or the Flying Spaghetti Monster or, pretty much, any BS description of pixies, fairies, elves and any three-headed monster you care to name.
Which is why it hasn't earned a place in science class.
Didn't think she could explain what the Darwin quote meant. Her evasive retreat is noted. :)
How would you do that? If there are no constraints on what the hypothetical designer could do, what possible observation could show that some structure wasn't designed?
For example, it has been found that certain genetic markers, ERVs, have the property that if one is found in both gorillas and chimps, it will also be found in people. The ToE hypothesizes that this is because people share a common ancestor with chimps, and that this common ancestor and gorillas have another common ancestor. Assuming this, the conclusion follows that the same pattern will be found for other ERVs and also other DNA structures. So far, this has always been observed.
ID cannot make this prediction; there is nothing to say whether the hypothetical designer was forced to maintain this pattern.
Finding counterexamples to this pattern would be a big blow against ToE.
In contrast, there is no possible observation that would have the same effect on ID. ID is vacuous; it can accomodate any observation.
That's why it's not science. That's why scientists get riled up when politicians try to pretend that it is science.
Tail between her legs? ;->
Clarke was definitely no creationist. We had a thread on him, many years ago: Arthur C. Clark's Views on Creationism. It's one of the first threads I ever posted.
Interesting Clarke thread; I especially like the retro fonts. :)
I've been a research scientist in the life sciences since 1965 and a staunch defender of evolution theory throughout my career. Having said that, I've come to the above, quoted conclusion several times before, especially when writing articles for publication and grant proposals.
The trend, at least in my field (endocrinology-neuroscience) is to develop well the 'discussion' section. That's the place in which the justification, and even more emphatically, the 'implications' are developed for the reader. It's also the place where the authors can get onto a slippery slope. I've always felt uneasiness having to depart, like this, from being a empirically-driven scientist to suddenly be called upon to become a seer. That, too me, is a shortcoming of scientists' trying "fit in" with the rest of the world via the media, etc.
What the scientist would do, if allowed, during a TV interview which asks, "But what's it all mean professor, about the future of mankind?"---is to say, "I have no idea. I'm going back to my lab do research your question further and, if I'm lucky I'll have partial answer for before I die. Wait right here."
In summary, "..the neeed to find purpose (evolutionary significance) in every facet of reality..." is strong. But it must be resisted simply because it can be a source of bias.
This reminds me of an anecdote about a wise man who, during a seminar he was giving, was asked:
"What is the future of the World going to look like in 50 years?" His response was to look at his watch and announce:
"It is 2:30 in the afternoon; in 4 hours, I will be eating dinner. I have no idea what I will be eating. If I don't know what I'm eating for dinner in 4 hours, how can I, or anyone else, tell you what the world will be like in 50 years?"
The "wise man" was the Dalai Lama.
BWAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHA! There has been a documentary playing on one of the independent channels over the last couple of weeks with that very purpose with respect to physics. I think it was "What Do We Know?".
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