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Citizen MD [American Medical Association op-ed against Intelligent Design]
American Medical Association ^ | 12/02/2005 | Paul Costello

Posted on 12/03/2005 6:18:54 AM PST by Right Wing Professor

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To: Mamzelle

No, Baby Fae is not a poster child for anything. Baby Fae is a tragedy.

As for ego...evolution said the material would not be compatible, Biblical literalism dismissed the evidence.


121 posted on 12/03/2005 12:13:15 PM PST by From many - one.
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To: From many - one.
And from one ambitious surgeon who wanted to experiment, the whole scientific world will collapse!

Will you be joining the Democrats soon to stave off this calamity?

122 posted on 12/03/2005 12:17:29 PM PST by Mamzelle
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To: From many - one.
If anything the anti-scientists are more like Marxists thany anything else we've seen recently...think Mao's flowers blooming and the overthrow of the educated in Stalin's Russia.

And Hitler's policies ran a few brilliant scientists out of Germany just before an important war (just when he needed them the most).

123 posted on 12/03/2005 12:19:16 PM PST by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: Stultis
If this is so then why are those who would expose such "grave weaknesses" directing 99.99% of their effort toward pushing the debate in front of high school students, and into other such popular and political venues where there can be no possible decisive result; and only 0.01% of their effort toward making their case before the professional scientific community, for instance with original scientific research?

Don't you realize how utterly bizarre and ahistorical the behavior of antievolutionists is in this respect? No group of scientists who sincerely believed they possessed a superior new theory, or a compelling refutation of an existing theory, would ever, or have ever, behaved in this way.

A scientist pushing a new, fringe, controversial, etc, idea will seek to recruit working scientists, or at least advanced science students likely to soon begin a research career, who can help develop and advance his ideas; NOT high school students, or even college students taking intro-biology to fulfill a course requirement, who can contribute nothing!

A scientist who sincerely believes that his new ideas have real scientific merit wants other scientists in the end to notice, consider and test those ideas. Therefore such a scientist will NEVER attempt to force adoption of his ideas in secondary school and introductory curricula, knowing this can only INCREASE hostility toward them in the scientific community, as it will appear to be an attempted "end run" around the process of peer review.

Well said!!!!!!

124 posted on 12/03/2005 12:31:01 PM PST by 2ndreconmarine (Horse feces (929 citations) vs ID (0 citations) and horse feces wins!!!!!)
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To: Mamzelle
And from one ambitious surgeon who wanted to experiment, the whole scientific world will collapse!

It was not intended as an experiment you unbelievably ignorant clown!

125 posted on 12/03/2005 12:34:06 PM PST by balrog666 (A myth by any other name is still inane.)
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To: Mamzelle
It's a turf war, pure and simple. Fear. They fear they'll lose the freedom to openly ridicule their own students, fear a loss of prestige, loss of postion--perhaps even loss of money, lest a grant find its way into the ID crowd.

Oh yeah, I'm just shaking in my boots!!! LOL. Some ID'er snake oil salesman with an 8th grade education could really compete with me. This is beyond funny.

Here's why it is really funny. My personal publication record, all by myself, over the last ten years, exceeds all those published on ID by anyone anywhere. The entire scientific output of ID is less than just me. (And my peer review record isn't all that great, I tend to publish more in proceedings).

But these guys are going to take my programs??? Yeah, right.

126 posted on 12/03/2005 12:39:13 PM PST by 2ndreconmarine (Horse feces (929 citations) vs ID (0 citations) and horse feces wins!!!!!)
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To: balrog666

Oh, it was an experiment all right--one they had no business attempting, but it was a different time. Now they do that sort of thing in SKorea... Heart surgeons did a lot of that in the late seventies and early eighties--this was surely a case of overreaching ego. I don't quite know what the evo-keeing is about, though. Would a chimp's organ have done better?


127 posted on 12/03/2005 12:40:36 PM PST by Mamzelle (evogracious#6--you unbelievably ignorant clown!)
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To: Matchett-PI
"The quote accurately reflects what Ruse believes. Your protest is just a reflection of your embarrassment at his honesty. LOL

However, the claim is sometimes, and more plausibly, made that evolutionary theory, along with some other scientific theories, functions as a kind of attitudinal metaphysical system [Ruse 1989]. It is (in my opinion, rightly) thought to influence the kinds of problems and solutions dealt with by science. There is no problem with this, since in order for a discipline to make any progress, the field of possible problems (essentially infinite, to use a malapropism) must be restricted to some set of plausible and viable research options. The theory of evolution as now consensually held acts to narrow the range and limit the duplication required. This is harmless, and is true of any field of science.

Ruse also describes what he calls "metaphysical Darwinism" [Ruse 1992] (as opposed to "scientific Darwinism") which is indeed a metaphysical system akin to a worldview, and which has expressed itself in numerous extra-scientific philosophies, including Spencer's, Teilhard's, and Haeckel's, or even the quasi-mystical views of Julian Huxley. These must be considered separate to the scientific theory, and are often in contradiction to the actual scientific models.

Other than this, the "metaphysic" of evolution by selection is primarily a research-guiding mindset that has been extraordinarily fruitful where no others have been [Hull 1989]. However, as a metaphysic, evolutionary theory is fairly poverty-stricken. This is what should be true of a scientific theory; for the number of conclusions beyond the empirical evidence that can be conjectured is unlimited. Any theory that committed itself to a metaphysical conclusion as a logical inference would be almost certainly false.

Those who need Cosmic Meaning need not fear that any version of evolutionary theory prohibits it; although neither does nor can it support it. Those evolutionists who have either argued in favour of Cosmic Meaning on the basis of evolutionary theory, or have argued that there can be no Cosmic Meaning because things evolve, are both wrong. The conclusions do not follow from the premises, simply because 'is' does not imply 'ought'. John Wilkins

John Wilkins, the author of the above quote, is a Philosopher of Science who has actually read and understood Ruse.

I suspect you have not.

128 posted on 12/03/2005 12:41:50 PM PST by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: From many - one.
I am not advocating the following, just throwing it out for your input

It might work in a red state. Dems around here are pretty conservative - they have to be. On the other hand, I don't know if I could really bring myself to vote for a Dem. It just seems wrong :-)

I was more interested in targeting the more extreme fundamentalist Republicans. Santorum, for example, isn't fundie, but he's been outspokenly anti-evolution, and he's in trouble anyway. It would be better to target such guys in a primary, though.

129 posted on 12/03/2005 12:45:36 PM PST by Right Wing Professor
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placemark


130 posted on 12/03/2005 12:47:36 PM PST by Mamzelle (evogracious#6--you unbelievably ignorant clown!)
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To: Mamzelle

Don't be silly.


131 posted on 12/03/2005 12:48:21 PM PST by From many - one.
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To: CarolinaGuitarman; Matchett-PI
"She knows this, it has all been explained to her. She just doesn't feel compelled to be honest about it."

Whatever her personal ethics are, it is always useful to show the Lurkers the reality of her posts.

BTW, you are doing a heck of a job.

132 posted on 12/03/2005 12:49:12 PM PST by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: Matchett-PI
Of course the bottom line is the fact that we wouldn't even be having this "debate" if the people who have the God-given responsibility for their own children's education, were allowed to send their children to the school of their choice (religious, or otherwise).

On that we fully agree. No sarcasm. School vouchers is one of the reasons that I am a conservative.

It is also a central point for another reason. If the schools could be chosen by parents, then we would all care a lot less about what the government and the creationists (IDers) believe. They could all have their fairy tales.

One of the mistakes of creationists / IDers make is that they assume that we (Darwinists) argue so strongly because we are "afraid" that "our theory" might be challenged. But the reason is the same as for you creationists: we are really uncomfortable with some of the things people teach or want to teach our children.

133 posted on 12/03/2005 12:51:48 PM PST by 2ndreconmarine (Horse feces (929 citations) vs ID (0 citations) and horse feces wins!!!!!)
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To: Right Wing Professor

I think you're right on both counts...it would have to be a red state, if at all and targeting the primaries would be a better approach.


134 posted on 12/03/2005 12:53:08 PM PST by From many - one.
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To: From many - one.

Of course you'd have to promote Dems in red states. Blue states are already Democratic.


135 posted on 12/03/2005 12:54:53 PM PST by Mamzelle (evogracious#6--you unbelievably ignorant clown!)
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To: Matchett-PI; CarolinaGuitarman
"You had it spelled out for you in post #71. Stop trying to make me responsible for your inability to comprehend it. :)

The message and the value of post 71 is easily understood. What is hard to understand is your penchant for presenting 'quote mines'.

For those lurkers out there.
A quote mine is a quote taken out of context and presented in such a way that its meaning is changed. The usual purpose is to make the original author appear to be agreeing with the miner. It is a contrived use of the 'Appeal to Authority' logical fallacy.

136 posted on 12/03/2005 12:56:04 PM PST by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: Right Wing Professor

YEC INTREP


137 posted on 12/03/2005 12:59:43 PM PST by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America)
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To: Coyoteman

Agreed. But he did manage to keep most of the non-Jewish smart folk. Marxism might be called the (temporary) triumph of the Yahoos.


138 posted on 12/03/2005 1:02:17 PM PST by From many - one.
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To: 2ndreconmarine

He prodices unfounded criticism.


139 posted on 12/03/2005 1:05:13 PM PST by furball4paws (The new elixir of life - dehydrated toad urine.)
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To: Right Wing Professor; From many - one.

It wouldn't work. It's like trying to move a 300 ton marshmallow (Ghost Busters, anyone?). Those who are not absorbed are alienated.

A third party seems most logical, but attempts so far have been pretty dismal failures.


140 posted on 12/03/2005 1:08:10 PM PST by furball4paws (The new elixir of life - dehydrated toad urine.)
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