Posted on 12/02/2005 4:53:42 AM PST by Crackingham
That's Bryanna's article right?
I think the real problem here is that those that usually do this type of work have moved on to jobs Americans won't do like construction, warehouse work, etc. Why work in a field 10 hours a day for low pay when you can work for 8 hours make 3 times as much elsewhere.
Yeah. These are used for sauces and stuff.
But, you know, if America never solves the tasty tomato challenge, I think that somehow the republic will still survive.
Really? Wheat and corn too? Why? These are harvested by machine.
No. The problem is that a lot of greedy people are hiring illegals to not only do farm work but to do the jobs you mentioned. They are not concerned with the future of this country.
Millions of Americans grow their own tomatoes and often they have such a surplus that they bring them to work and give them away to their friends. Don't think that everyone is just like you.
There are a lot of different ways of solving problems.
WTF???
There is a big difference between growing tomatoes, even an acre or two for fun and picking tomatoes bent over, day in and out for weeks.
That said, you really do not know anything about my work ethic, experience, or the hours I work as it is, or you would never have made such an idiotic comment.
Put it this way, I started as a small child working in tobacco fields, was doing heavy construction by 14, and I only work an 84 to 90 hour week now.
SO no, I really don't think everyone is just like me.
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Yes, you think most people aren't as good as you. You did make a fairly negative generalization about most other people:
As long as there is a way to get by without it, few will bend their backs and work. It is the more attractive alternatives which lead to the lack of workers
In fact you really don't know that much about your fellow Americans because you haven't met them all. The Amish and Hutterites, for example, do farm labor even though they could easily find better work.
People in this country are much more diverse than you think.
And yet people still do it. But what if they wouldn't? Do you think we would become a tomatoless society?
I don't. I think there is always another way to solve the great tomato riddle.
The problem is that most of this work used to be done by people who took seasonal labor jobs. It used to be whole families who would travel from migrant camp to migrant camp picking what ever was in season.
Problems with that today is that few people actually want to do that and if given an option they will not do that. Once welfare began to be a right the people who would do this kind of job settled down in the cities and began to sit on their butt all day watching tv.
It also used to be traditional for high school kids to hire themselves out for this kind of work. Well the high school kids of today have other options and they prefer to lean against a counter at Starbucks yakking with the cute customers rather then picking tomatoes even if they would make more money as a picker.
This trend was identified back in the seventies and most big farmers were moving to mechanized labor which made a lot of sense both dollar and labor wise.
Enter the two big bugaboos of progress, big labor and big government. In 1979 California Rural Legal Assistance and United Farm Workers sued U.C. Davis, charging that it was using public money for research that displaced workers and helped only big growers.
The Carter's DOL announced that they were going to cut funding to any institution that had the aim of replacing an "adequate and willing work force with machines".
Appropriately cowed U.C. Davis promptly ceased and desisted.
This is the part of history that is ignored by both sided of the aisle.
The answer is not to raise wages as will undoubtedly be proposed by some, nor is it to import still more people willing to do this job as proposed by others. The raising wages will not work because it is very limited in the amount of bodies it can produce and it would push the price of produce up to the point where it is cheaper to import then to grow. That is not a good thing.
On the other hand even a flawless system with temporary workers is just going to push the problem down the road another twenty years at best.
Our only option is to crank up the R&D on automation. Problem is what to do in the mean time. I suppose we could demand that all welfare recipients must spend at least three months of the year doing farm work.
I don't like the idea of importing crops either. But I would prefer importing crops to importing cheap labor.
You are right, R&D is the answer. I would prefer that the funds be directed by the private sector though.
Answer: Mechanical pickers & harvesters.
I don't know where you got that crap, I didn't say it.
I am quite capable of stating what I think in no uncertain terms.
People in this country are much more diverse than you think.
Ohhhhhh Great Swami, tell me what I think!
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In fact you really don't know that much about your fellow Americans because you haven't met them all.The Amish and Hutterites, for example, do farm labor even though they could easily find better work.
The Amish and Hutterites are hardly typical cases. They could find better work because they have a work ethic learned by farming--the hard way.
Most people I have met in the mere 38 states I have been in, not counting the expatriates from the others, simply do not have that background, especially with the current laws concerning child labor.
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If you read the thread, there is a lot of discussion about that. There is also another thread on that topic.
Thanks, Dan. But I don't have time to read big threads today.
Briefly, I read an article where years ago Australia had the choice to either import, house, feed, provide medical, etc. for Indonesian temporary workers or invest in mechanical harvesters for their vineyards.
They correctly chose to mechanize, resulting in a more rapid grape harvesting and a 20% higher yield over using human pickers while avoiding all the problems associated with importing poverty.
This woman was a complete idiot. She could have doubled her wages, found takers and probably still made a good profit on those tomatoes.
Well what did you mean when you said, "As long as there is a way to get by without it, few will bend their backs and work." When I suggested that shouldn't assume everyone is like you, you took offense. The logical conclusion is that you think you are one of the noble few.
The Amish and Hutterites are hardly typical cases.
How do you know? Most of the common people in this country do not make a lot of noise and they don't get a lot of press. Amish and Hutterites are the more famous of the fundamentalist Christians because they don't blend in. And where would you meet them anyway? Not in a bar. People like that tend to keep to themselves.
They could find better work because they have a work ethic learned by farming--the hard way.
Yes, they could, but many don't. That's my point.
A lot of people are set in their ways and do not think in terms of upward mobility. If they are accustomed to hard work, they will do it rather than have their lives disrupted by modernization.
But their is no reason that Americans like this can not take up the slack if the employment of illegals is stopped. For example, the Amish population has increased by a factor of 36 in last 100 years. If the farms that previously employed illegals were to go broke, gradually Amish or Hutterites, or others like them could buy this land.
I wish we had done that.
Correct, but it cannot be linked here.
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