I am a conservative - Long (Double secret vanity)

Rice08

[Casloy]

I don't want any abortions to happen, I have also come to terms with the incredibly personal nature of the act that I don't want any state entity getting involved.

So, let me see if I have this right. You'd rather see millions of babies die, than intrude on a personal decision. I believe that is called anarchy.

[rice08]

I don't want to view as me winning and you somehow losing, my point I think is that a nation on a good economic footing over the long term (with better education and so forth) leads to fewer abortions vs. whatever kind of insane nanny state hillary envisions.

[rice08]

No I would see otherwise conservative people with a conservative vison home and abroad win.

Let's put it another way, this is an argument I use against liberals when it comes to defending the republican "pro-life" position since say 1981 we had 8 years of the gipper, bush 1 and bush 2, 11 years of a republican house and a total of what, 8 years republican senate. Countless progress on the state level on governors and legislators.


what precisely has been done to reduce the number of abortions?

this is a hearts and minds issue, a MORAL issue if you will, not a legal one. Did Prohibition stop people from drinking?

an well educated person with a good job and a steady life is far far far far far less likely to not only get pregnant or get someone pregnant out of wedlock, they are far less likely to have an abortion.

to put it another way, what good is a RINO if all he manages to do is get the faithful out to vote on election day by promising something that he has no intention of delivering on.

[rice08]

I do like a drink now and again this is true (but I like to share) exactly what part of my "bilge" do you oppose? you UN Lovin' hillarycare pushin' something something

[Casloy]

this is a hearts and minds issue, a MORAL issue if you will, not a legal one

It's not a hearts and minds issue, it is a legal issue. You can pass a million laws and people will still do evil, but that doesn't mean you simply change the law. Kids will always be victims of sexual abuse, but that doesn't mean you rid yourself of the problem be eliminating the penalty for doing it. Using your logic one could even argue that if you legalized sex with children, there is less likelyhood the attacker won't kill his victim to cover his crime. That is the argument made by pro-abortionists, that somehow keeping it legal keeps it out of back alleys.

[rice08]

well keeping it legal does keep it out of back alleys but the argument about abortion isn't about order vs. anarchy.

my goal and your goal is for zero abortions to occure, so the question is do we create the kind of country where nobody wants one or keep marginalizing otherwise good conservatives over this issue and just stumble along hoping for something to happen?

Heck if Roe V. Wade is gone TOMORROW it's another 20 year of state by state legal battles, probably ending with a 50/50 split of states that do and don't allow abortions, so basically forcing people to take a grayhound who would otherwise not get one locally.

that's some great victory and in the mean time how many conservatives have gone down to defeat (or MUCH more likely gotten nowhere near power to begin with) because of this all or nothing view.

I want to state again that I don't want anyone to "give up" on this issue and that I also want no abortions to occure but I think the conservative movement as a whole and the republican party as a part of that movement will forever hurt it's objectives by dealing with it the way we have.

[Casloy]

how many conservatives have gone down to defeat

Historically, every good conservative candidate who has stood firm on abortion has done well. The last thing I want is a candidate who gives in on a fundamental core issue just so he can win. I don't want abortions minimized, I want them made illegal. I'd also like to make my case in the court of public opinion and the state legislatures, rather then have the Supreme Court shove it down my throat with one of the dumbest rulings this side of Dred Scott.

[rice08]

The point I am making is that there are many good conservatives who are non starters because they aren't pro life. and I don't want you to change your position. I also agree with the points made about the legal aspects of roe vs. wade. but again there is no possible combination of voters that you can come up with that can make abortion illegal everywhere in this country. it simple isn't possible. If roe vs. wade is overturned the most you can ever hope to win is forcing people to take a grayhound. In the 20 year politically bloody battle to achieve this dubious victory I can assure you many conservatives will lose and we know what fills that vacume.