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To: Aquinasfan
"we exist, enjoy "life" only because God wills it

True.

as we are, in essence, nothing.

False! We're created in God's "image and likeness."

The logical argument against annihilation is that everything that God created is good (man especially), and God does not act in vain."

Well of course God doesn't act in vain. I doubt any of the Fathers ever said anything like that. On the other hand, do you think that God acted in vain if a created being does not attain theosis? Theosis, after all, is our created purpose, is it not? If we fail to attain theosis, does this say anything about God? Of course not. And if we are condemned, is it God who condemns us, whether that condemnation is an eternity of death or torment in hell or simply spiritual annihilation? Of course not.

You say that everything created by God is good. Clearly. But God is not the author of sin nor of the consequences of sin; we are. As +John Chrysostoms teaches, "God created without matter.", ex nihilo. So it is of course beyond argument that all "Life" is from God. +John Damascene teaches in Book 1 Chap VIII of the Exact Exposition:

"Therefore, we believe in one God one principle, without beginning, uncreated, unbegotten, indestructible and immortal, eternal, unlimited, uncircumscribed, unbounded, infinite in power, simple, uncompounded, incorporeal, unchanging, unaffected, unchangeable, inalterate, invisible, source of goodness and justice, light intellectual and inaccessible; power which no measure can give any idea of but which is measured only by His own will, for He can do all things whatsoever He pleases; Maker of all things both visible and invisible, holding together all things and conserving them, Provider for all, governing and dominating and ruling over all in unending and immortal reign; without contradiction, filling all things, contained by nothing, but Himself containing all things, being their Conserver and first Possessor; pervading all substances without being defiled, removed far beyond all things and every substance as being supersubstantial and surpassing all, super-eminently divine and good and replete; appointing all the principalities and orders, set above every principality and order, above essence and life and speech and concept; light itself and goodness and being insofar as having neither being, nor anything else that is derived from any other; the very source of being for all things that are, of life to the living, of speech to the articulate, and the cause of all good things for all; knowing all things before they begin to be; one substance, one godhead, one virtue, one will, one operation, one principality, one power, one domination, one kingdom; known in three perfect Persons and adored with one adoration, believed in and worshipped by every rational creature, united without confusion and distinct without separation, which is beyond understanding. We believe in Father and Son and Holy Spirit in Whom we have been baptized. For it is thus that the Lord enjoined the apostles 'Baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit'."

Thereafter at Book 1, Chap XIV, he writes:

"Further the divine effulgence and energy, being one anti simple and indivisible, assuming many varied forms in its goodness among what is divisible and allotting to each the component parts of its own nature, still remains simple and is multiplied without division among the divided, and gathers and converts the divided into its own simplicity . For all things long after it and have their existence in it. It gives also to all things being according to their several natures , and it is itself the being of existing things, the life of living things, the reason of rational beings, the thought of thinking beings. But it is itself above mind and reason and life and essence... It [the Divine Nature] is also sinless, and can cast sin out, and bring salvation: and all that it wills, it can accomplish, but does not will all it could accomplish. For it could destroy the universe but it does not will so to do."

Its a bit like the Cappadocian "I believe in God; God does not "exist".

So, created beings can exist in eternity, but only because God wills it. We hope that God will not allow us to fall into a sort of non existence, and certainly that is not what God created us for, but that doesn't mean that by not becoming like God Who is the only immortal being "by nature", by cutting ourselves off from Him through sin and experiencing spiritual death, we won't in fact cease to "exist" at the end of time.

So, AF, if we cut ourselves off from the source of being, what happens to our being?

557 posted on 11/30/2005 4:29:28 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Claud; sionnsar; HarleyD

Meant to ping you three to #557


559 posted on 11/30/2005 4:30:43 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis
Well of course God doesn't act in vain. I doubt any of the Fathers ever said anything like that. On the other hand, do you think that God acted in vain if a created being does not attain theosis?

No, because the reprobate creature damns himself while still mysteriously serving God's purpose of promoting the good of all of Creation. Additionally, the reprobate creature always remains good in his essence. Even the devil's essence, i.e., what he is, is good, as is his existence considered in and of itself. So it seems just that God would not annihilate the devil (destroying His own good creation), but rather allow him to exist for eternity apart from God, which was the devil's choice. This solution upholds the goodness of God's creative act and also God's justice.

Theosis, after all, is our created purpose, is it not? If we fail to attain theosis, does this say anything about God? Of course not. And if we are condemned, is it God who condemns us,

We condemn ourselves. I agree.

whether that condemnation is an eternity of death or torment in hell or simply spiritual annihilation? Of course not.

I think that there is a great and important distinction between eternal torment in hell and annihilation, for the reasons mentioned above.

You say that everything created by God is good. Clearly. But God is not the author of sin nor of the consequences of sin; we are. As +John Chrysostoms teaches, "God created without matter.", ex nihilo. So it is of course beyond argument that all "Life" is from God. +John Damascene teaches in Book 1 Chap VIII of the Exact Exposition:

Thereafter at Book 1, Chap XIV, he writes:

"...For it could destroy the universe but it does not will so to do."

This is the relevant point. God does not owe us existence. God is sufficient unto Himself and did not need to create anything. But Good is diffusive, and God freely chose to create the universe.

So it seems to me that annihilation of creatures who God created in the image of God would represent a reversal, or contradiction, of His will, which is impossible.

I couldn't find anything in the Summa regarding the impossibility of the annihilation of the damned, but the idea seems to be reinforced by Scripture.

"Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"
I think the situation is analogous to merit. We don't merit our heavenly reward per se. God honors His own promise to us to reward our good works in Heaven. But our good works are nothing more than God working through us. While the just can be sure of a heavenly reward, it is not because of some claim of justice over and against God. So it is with the notion of the annihilation of the damned. God honors His own will.

So, AF, if we cut ourselves off from the source of being, what happens to our being?

We do not possess being or existence by nature. Our existence is a participation in God's existence or being. Nevertheless, by the fact that the damned exist and retain their human nature, they must participate in God's being in some very attenuated way (in the sense of a First Cause).

590 posted on 12/01/2005 5:43:45 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Kolokotronis; Aquinasfan
So, AF, if we cut ourselves off from the source of being, what happens to our being?

We go mad. :)

Because we can't really cut ourselves off from that source. If we could, we wouldn't exist anymore.

The madness of the devils is to hate the very God that keeps them in existence.

617 posted on 12/01/2005 9:41:29 AM PST by Claud
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