Posted on 11/29/2005 3:42:52 PM PST by Claud
Vatican considers dropping 'limbo'
Theologians meet to look again at fate of unbaptised tots
(ANSA) - Vatican City, November 29 - The Catholic Church appears set to definitively drop the concept of limbo, the place where it has traditionally said children's souls go if they die before being baptised .
Limbo has been part of Catholic teaching since the 13th century and is depicted in paintings by artists such as Giotto and in important works of literature such as Dante's Divine Comedy .
But an international commission of Catholic theologians is meeting in the Vatican this week to draw up a new report for Pope Benedict XVI on the question. The report is widely expected to advise dropping it from Catholic teaching .
The pope made known his doubts about limbo in an interview published in 1984, when he was Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, head of the Vatican's doctrinal department .
"Limbo has never been a defined truth of faith," he said. "Personally, speaking as a theologian and not as head of the Congregation, I would drop something that has always been only a theological hypothesis." According to Italian Vatican watchers, the reluctance of theologians to even use the word limbo was clear in the way the Vatican referred in its official statement to the question up for discussion .
The statement referred merely to "the Fate of Children who Die Without Baptism" .
Benedict's predecessor, John Paul II, gave the commission the task of looking at the issue again in 2004. He asked experts to come up with a "theological synthesis" able to make the Church's approach "more coherent and illuminated" .
In fact, when John Paul II promulgated the updated version of the Catholic Church's catechism in 1992 there was no mention of the word limbo .
That document gave no clear answer to the question of what happened to children who died before being baptised .
It said: "The Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God...In fact the great mercy of God, who wants all men to be saved, and the tenderness of Jesus towards children... allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who die without baptism." This view is in stark contrast to what Pope Pius X said in an important document in 1905: "Children who die without baptism go into limbo, where they do not enjoy God, but they do not suffer either, because having original sin, and only that, they do not deserve paradise, but neither hell or purgatory." According to teaching from the 13th century on, limbo was also populated by the prophets and patriarchs of Israel who lived in the time before Jesus Christ .
I have always thought that young children who are born sinners but have never actually committed a sin cannot possibly go into 'Limbo' after dying. GOD and Jesus love little children.
You didn't read the article. It was never a defined dogma, just a theory. The Immaculate Conception was a widely-believed hypothesis until it was infallibly defined as dogma.
I was never taught that the concept of "limbo" was a guaranteed truth. It was always "debated".
No we don't wonder because there is no perpetual reinvention. To say so shows your lack of understanding of our beliefs. Doctrines do not change, our understanding of them can change, but they do not.
Care to explain how it is absurd? Or are you just taking a shot at his comment?
George Carlin ~ Limbooooooooooooooooo
When Jesus was baptized with water by John, the Holy Spirit descended upon Him as a dove. Baptism, therefore, is both by water and spirit. Catholics believe that is when a person becomes 'born again'.
Baptism of desire. God can act in an extraordinary way to receive even the unbaptized. In this case, an infant, who is obviously not of the age of reason, may theoretically desire baptism by virtue of its soul. This, also, is not defined, which is why John Paul II emphasized the need to trust in God's mercy for these souls - that as a mother would not forget her children, God will not forget those whom He formed in the palm of His hand.
So, I'm not really sure where it says in the Bible that without exception Christ MUST be chosen by anyone of us, when it clearly demonstrates here that the faith of this man's neighbors was reason enough to bring him healing and forgiveness of sins, since he - like an unbaptized baby - could not speak for himself.
Also, if as you say "Christ must be chosen by you, not for you", what happens to the mentally retarded, the autistic, the insane, who can neither reason the Gospel, nor make known their acceptance of Christ? Since they can't make that "commitment", are they excluded from salvation?
My wife has lost two children to miscarriage and there isn't a day goes by without me thinking about where they are and what state they are in. I await developments in this area with great interest.
One has certain feelings and hopes of course, but not being a theologian or any sort of authority on this subject, one is simply left to commend the issue to God in prayer.
Fascinating.
Agreed.
"The grace of deification thus transcends nature, virtue and knowledge, and `all these things are inferior to it.[+Maximos]'
Precisely! :) As we'd say in Latin, "super natura". For us to live in heaven we must be transformed, as if we were fish being reconfigured to live out of water. "No one can see the face of God and live".
Some in Orthodoxy would say that he is condemned. Others, and I think they are a majority, maintain that we do not know what would happen and to firmly declare otherwise is to assert some limitation on the power of the Holy Spirit.
Interesting. Now by condemned, what sense do we mean? Condemned to an existence without theosis, or condemned to the torments of hell? Based on what I know of the Greek Fathers, I would guess the former alone.
My hypothesis is that, when God delegates decision-making via free will, He doesn't cheat and peek at the answers.
God's disappointment doesn't imply a lack of prescience. For example, I know that December 26th will be the day after Christmas and all the festivities will come to an end. I will still be disappointed, though I know that Christmas Day can't possibly last more than 24 hours on earth. I know without doubt, what will happen on December 26th - it will no longer be December 25th - and I will be disappointed.
God is eternal. Imagine time stretched on a thread of string. God sees it all in one view. Beginning, middle, end. We can only see this very moment, and (theoretically) every moment in the past. He sees what we will do with our free will and will not violate our free will to prevent the ways in which we will disappoint Him along the way. He is merciful and loving and rejoices in His children who live by faith in His Son, Jesus. He has eternal glory in spite of those who do the work of Satan.
is a quote from Larry Lucido's post, not mine...
No, I was simply asking you a question, a question you have not yet answered.
-A8
How do you know that it is a mere physical act?
-A8
I'm curious - what got inside your head and stole your faith? You have so much hostility on this subject, I can't help but surmise that you've been directly affected by the loss of an infant? Or are ya' just bonkers?
So the Dalai Lama, a Nobel Peace prize winner, is going to hell, right?
That can be said for all religions.
Is that Tommy Lee Jones ;)
You're sadly mistraken if you believe that. We have nothing to "catch up" to. We possess the fullness of the faith as promised by Christ Jesus and with the guidance of the Most Holy Spirit. Protestantism, on the other hand decieded it could pick and choose what it liked or disliked. If Protestants want to question the Holy Spirit, let them, I'd prefer to stay in the fold of the Church created by Christ Jesus.
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