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Vatican Considers Dropping "Limbo"
ANSA.it ^ | 11-29-2005 | unknown

Posted on 11/29/2005 3:42:52 PM PST by Claud

Vatican considers dropping 'limbo'

Theologians meet to look again at fate of unbaptised tots

(ANSA) - Vatican City, November 29 - The Catholic Church appears set to definitively drop the concept of limbo, the place where it has traditionally said children's souls go if they die before being baptised .

Limbo has been part of Catholic teaching since the 13th century and is depicted in paintings by artists such as Giotto and in important works of literature such as Dante's Divine Comedy .

But an international commission of Catholic theologians is meeting in the Vatican this week to draw up a new report for Pope Benedict XVI on the question. The report is widely expected to advise dropping it from Catholic teaching .

The pope made known his doubts about limbo in an interview published in 1984, when he was Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, head of the Vatican's doctrinal department .

"Limbo has never been a defined truth of faith," he said. "Personally, speaking as a theologian and not as head of the Congregation, I would drop something that has always been only a theological hypothesis." According to Italian Vatican watchers, the reluctance of theologians to even use the word limbo was clear in the way the Vatican referred in its official statement to the question up for discussion .

The statement referred merely to "the Fate of Children who Die Without Baptism" .

Benedict's predecessor, John Paul II, gave the commission the task of looking at the issue again in 2004. He asked experts to come up with a "theological synthesis" able to make the Church's approach "more coherent and illuminated" .

In fact, when John Paul II promulgated the updated version of the Catholic Church's catechism in 1992 there was no mention of the word limbo .

That document gave no clear answer to the question of what happened to children who died before being baptised .

It said: "The Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God...In fact the great mercy of God, who wants all men to be saved, and the tenderness of Jesus towards children... allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who die without baptism." This view is in stark contrast to what Pope Pius X said in an important document in 1905: "Children who die without baptism go into limbo, where they do not enjoy God, but they do not suffer either, because having original sin, and only that, they do not deserve paradise, but neither hell or purgatory." According to teaching from the 13th century on, limbo was also populated by the prophets and patriarchs of Israel who lived in the time before Jesus Christ .


TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: baptism; catholic; hell; limbo; madeuptheology; notinbible; theology
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To: adiaireton8

So, where do you go to wash yourself in this blood?

Are you equating water with Blood? The Bible never does. But if the Bible ever did equate water with Blood, then IMMERSION in water would be the better mode of baptism, would it not?


281 posted on 11/29/2005 11:41:12 PM PST by Free Baptist
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To: Aquinasfan; mike182d; Dionysiusdecordealcis
So you can read this prooftext the way you do, with Augustine and Cyprian, but if you do so, you are in direct conflict with the dogmatic tradition of the Western Church which, since Innnocent III, has openly taught that infants are not condemned to hell by original sin; only actual sin, freely chosen after the age of reason, condemns to hell.
201 posted on 11/29/2005 5:50:58 PM PST by Dionysiusdecordealcis

Then I stand corrected. 8-)
And not because of St. Thomas' position alone, but because of your explanation.
223 posted on 11/29/2005 6:08:28 PM PST by Aquinasfan

> since Innnocent III, has openly taught that infants are not condemned to hell by original sin;
Could that be because ...?
Just curious...
276 posted on 11/29/2005 9:16:45 PM PST by mike182d

Aquinasfan & mike182d: St. Anselm & Innocent III did not teach what Dionysiusdecordealcis says they taught. See Post #274.

282 posted on 11/29/2005 11:55:20 PM PST by Dajjal
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To: dsc

No, I don't believe infants go to hell when they die. I don't have all the answers, but "Limbo" isn't one of them.


283 posted on 11/30/2005 3:19:58 AM PST by manwiththehands (Democrats and the MSM: lies and hypocrisy on steroids)
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To: Gadsden1st

I agree with you, apparently I am having extreme difficulty in conveying my actual thoughts.


284 posted on 11/30/2005 3:34:30 AM PST by RipSawyer (Acceptance of irrational thinking is expanding exponentiallly.)
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To: Hound of the Baskervilles

Surely you understand this.>>>>>>>>>

I understand this perfectly, my point is that some on this thread consider the act of baptism itself to have some power, without going into all the other aspects of belief, it should be obvious to anyone that a mere physical act confers nothing. Baptism is a mere outward symbol.


285 posted on 11/30/2005 3:37:14 AM PST by RipSawyer (Acceptance of irrational thinking is expanding exponentiallly.)
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To: Alberta's Child

Jesus went to be baptized on his own accord, this has nothing to do with the apparent belief of some that the baptism of an infant who is too young to decide anything on his own can be cleansed by a mere physical act.


286 posted on 11/30/2005 3:39:47 AM PST by RipSawyer (Acceptance of irrational thinking is expanding exponentiallly.)
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To: Claud

Didn't Jesus say, "Suffer the little children to come unto Me?" What more do you need? He meant that the innocent should not be deprived of His presence, not even for a moment, much less a subset of eternity such as limbo.


287 posted on 11/30/2005 3:43:16 AM PST by giotto
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To: Claud

Try the stock market.


288 posted on 11/30/2005 3:44:56 AM PST by Bogie
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To: Buggman
You think that Abraham, who was called the friend of God, and Moses, with whom God spoke face to face as one speaks to his friend, are in a place without God?

No. The "Limbo of the Fathers" is different from the Limbo of infants who die without baptism.

The "Limbo of the Fathers" was the temporary place or state of those people who were bound for heaven yet died before Christ opened the gates of heaven.

289 posted on 11/30/2005 4:22:25 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Dajjal
Aquinasfan & mike182d: St. Anselm & Innocent III did not teach what Dionysiusdecordealcis says they taught. See Post #274.

Thanks Dajjal. I thought that sounded funny. Then I'm going back to my original position.

290 posted on 11/30/2005 4:23:22 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: NYer
Surprise! Carlin was wrong. Meatless Fridays were never done away with.

This can't be repeated often enough, although it's important to remember that this is a Church discipline and not a Church dogma. Nevertheless, the discipline is deserving of obedience.

291 posted on 11/30/2005 4:27:23 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: warsaw44
Bit is also sheds light on the fact that some within the Republican party / Conservatives are simply Anti Catholic plain and simple.

That's for sure.

292 posted on 11/30/2005 4:30:36 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Claud

So what happens to the babies now in Limbo? Do they get a "Never mind" sort of pass?


293 posted on 11/30/2005 4:30:37 AM PST by toddlintown (Lennon takes six bullets to the chest, Yoko is standing right next to him and not one f'ing bullet?)
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To: giotto
Didn't Jesus say, "Suffer the little children to come unto Me?" What more do you need?

We need to reconcile this statement with another statement of Jesus. "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit."

There is a tension here that is not easily resolved, which is why the Church leaves the fate of infants who die without baptism as an open question.

294 posted on 11/30/2005 4:43:15 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: toddlintown
So what happens to the babies now in Limbo? Do they get a "Never mind" sort of pass?

Historically, Limbo has been offered as a theological speculation regarding the fate of infants who die without baptism. It's not unreasonable speculation. Today, the Church is simply saying that theologians are gradually moving away from this speculation, and the Church is stating with greater force that the fate of infants dying without baptism is an open question.

295 posted on 11/30/2005 4:46:56 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Myrddin
Everyone is still waiting for that day..including Moses and Abraham.

When Jesus said to the theif on the cross that "on this day you will be with me in paradise," He meant "this day" as in several thousand years later when He returns for judgement?
296 posted on 11/30/2005 4:56:28 AM PST by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: Aquinasfan
It seems most likely to me that God, in some mysterious manner...

Yup, remember the thief on the cross.

Luke.23 [43] And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

He who makes the rules, makes the rules.

297 posted on 11/30/2005 4:57:23 AM PST by houeto (Mr. President, close our borders now!)
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To: RipSawyer
...this has nothing to do with the apparent belief of some that the baptism of an infant who is too young to decide anything on his own can be cleansed by a mere physical act.

It was common in the early Church, as written down in the book of Acts, for Apostles to not merely baptise a convert but his entire household as well, including any infants. There is certainly an objective cleansing act that takes place apart from one's awareness or consent to it. Otherwise, things like intercessory prayer would be rendered useless as nothing could help a man except himself and his choices.
298 posted on 11/30/2005 5:00:51 AM PST by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: houeto

wow...that's a bit creepy. Same scripture posted at the same time... :-)


299 posted on 11/30/2005 5:01:40 AM PST by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: mike182d

Perhaps meaningful. I was thinking about it myself as I read through the thread, but then it's one of my favorite arguments against "no salvation for unbaptized infants".


300 posted on 11/30/2005 5:06:10 AM PST by MarMema
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