Posted on 11/24/2005 11:42:29 AM PST by lizol
==I think, that Ukranian patriots are those, who are pro-Ukrainian, and want to have normal, free, independent Ukrainian state.==
Pro-Ukrainian means "wish good for Ukraine". I, to clear my position, think that Russia, Ukraine and Belorussia must be one country or at least closest allies.
I think that many Ukrainian patriots who wish the very best for Ukraine think the same.
Well, that's your opinion, but let me not agree with you.
==The move (some hundred years after the initial Mongol onslaught) of the metropolitan from Kyiv to Vladimir to Moscow is what substantiates the Russian claim to all of the former Rus'. A huge problem with that- Moscow was a Mongol puppet state.==
Actually history is more complex. Most of Russian principalities including Great Principality of Vladimir (later Moscow) were under Mongols. This means 1) they paid tribute to Kazan, 2) Kazan approved princes. Mongols did not live among Russians (but Russian slaves lived among Mongols). Some Russian principalities (for example Novgorod) were not under Mongols.
But all Russian principalities constantly (in unions of singly) fought each other and Mongols. So 'puppet' is not right since their politics was independent.
==Well, that's your opinion, but let me not agree with you.==
Yes, of course. I respect your position.
The questions of integration at last depend on position of Belorussians/Ukrainians/Russians. All must be solved civilized, by referendums. Without hurry.
Moscow is special. Mongols made them their representatives; so if a tribute to the Mongols had to be collected from a principality, Moscow was the the one doing the collecting. If someone had refused the Mongols, Moscow was on the side of the Mongols sending the punitive armies and enforcing the Mongol order.
So Russians can complain about the "Tatar yoke" till their faces turn blue, but in reality, as whole towns were being depopulated elsewhere, Moscow cooperated with Mongols, growing fat on someone else's money and misery. Before anyone even mentions Kulikovo Polie and the (brave) Russians fighting Mongol-Tatars, let me say that it's irrelevant. They fought back after more than a century of being their enforcers- a useless attempt at redemption.
Being pro-Ukrainian and what you said above simply don't go together. Besides half of the population not knowing their native language, the Chornobyl reactor, and half of Siberia covered with Ukrainian bones, what has Ukraine achieved in these last 300 years that it "co-operated" with Russia? Hate to invoke the the tiresome cliche phrase- those who haven't learned history are doomed to repeat it.
In 1595 Orthodox church (the bishops) are split, Uniate is created and proclaimed in 1596. Anti-Uniates have their own assembly. Catholic repression of Orthodox begins. Cossack revolt in 1620 leads to a creation of a new Orthodox patriarch in Kyiv consecrated by the Patriarch of Jerusalem. Uniate versus Orthodox conflict continues, with some attempts at reconciliation. Mohyla (a very well known name in Ukraine) is elected a metropolitan of Kyiv in 1633. He died in 1647. Khmelnytsky revolution followed. Then in 1686, for a price of 200 coins and 120 furs, Patriarchate Dionysios transferred the control of the Kyiv metropolitan from Greek to Moscow's jurisdiction. (May he &^#$@&^@&^^) Phew, got tired.
You're welcome.
Well one way to solve this sort of dilemma is to move to a tiny little town in the Mid West peopled by people of Scotish lineage who mostly attend the local Baptist Church!
That would be my grand dad ... :-)
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