Posted on 11/22/2005 7:11:21 AM PST by nckerr
It's the prayer the Lord commanded us to say. Singing it solo rubbed him the wrong way.
Two Sundays ago, we did a combined service with the main choir, the youth choir, all the children's choirs, the handbell crew, a five-piece brass, a tympani, and the full praise band. There was Bach and Beethoven, Micheal W Smith and Matt Redman. The finale was a version of "Agnus Dei" with EVERYONE, and I swear I got a glimpse of what it will be like singing with the heavenly host.
It was almost like Handel, whist writing "Messiah", when he was reduced to tears and said, "I did think I did see all Heaven before me and the great God himself" .
But you are right, it is all about the content. Strangely enough, not many in our praise and worship service raise hands (we ARE Methodists, you know...) ;)
Maybe for the same reason we have 'kiddy-garden' as well as grad school.
Spiritually not everyone is ready for the 'deeper truths' and some will never be.
Is there no place for someone who just gets saved and likes to sit in church, feel good and praise the Lord?
We all don't need to learn Latin, Greek or Estrangelo Aramaic in order to serve, do we?
A few observations from a Mega church (app 43,000 members) goer:
1. The Mega churches, in general, are strongly Biblical, the churches that aren't don't become Mega churches.
2. Much of the success of the Mega churches is due to their ability to create a Christian subculture. The effect on the individual congregant is difficult to describe in a few words, but it changes people's lives dramatically.
3. People come to church for many different reasons. As Dennis Raney says: "When your 16 yar old son suddenly insists on going to the Bible study at a local church, it probably is due to the fact that there a bunch of really good looking girls who also attend. Take him. People come to Jesus for different reasons". In my case, it was the music that brought me to Jesus. I had visited many other churches in the area, but when our choir started to sing it simply turned my life upside down. When they started swaying and clapping to the music it was almost unbearable, I felt as if I had been blown out of my seat and turned end over end. Others have been brought to Jesus in much the same way. Others through reason. It just seems to depend on the person and their stage in life.
4. Jeans and more casual clothing are more a reflection of a lifestyle of worship rather than any rebellion in attire or any disrepect for God.
5. I know who was at church last Sunday and who wasn't. Them that wasn't will be receiving a card. "Is everything OK?"
6. Worship Vs entertainment. Those of us who play instruments at church or who sing are more aware of this problem than most others. We aren't singing and playing to perform, we are doing so to lead Worship. Our rehearsals are also worship meetings, frequently they are really intense.
7. Bible studies are the key to the Mega churches. It is likely that you know everyone in your study or will very shortly. They are basically mini churches, about 60 to 200 people in size.
8. Whatever you think of Lakewood (Joel Osteen), it is just one church and others should not be judged using it as a global example. It is somewhat different from most other Mega churches.
9. Many people go to different churches at different times of their lives. Seekers go to one church and as they mature in their journey they will migrate to another. There is noting at all wrong with that approach.
10. The Mega churches are not cults but many of them are very enthusiastic in their Worship. This, I think, is a reflection of a need in people to connect with Jesus through their heart. It is also a relection of the most recent "Awakening" (the fifth in our history) that was set off by 9/11. It is extremely conservative and very Charismatic in feel, if not in detail.
11. In my own Mega church, a very large portion of revenue flows out of the church for Evangelical projects. A really large portion.
This is such a good point.
"Yeah, it is always better to shun the divorced. It is especially good to shun the children of divorced and single parents.
Clearly a church is no place for sinners or those seeking to remedy their failings."
The only way to remedy one's failings is to acknowledge that one has sinned and then to repent. The problem is, most churches, including most evangelical churches, would not teach that divorce is a per se sin. Rather they would teach that certain sins might make a divorce necessary, but, they would stop short of saying that the divorce itself is a sin. If they did so, of course, a large percentage of their congregation would be extremely offended.
Check out (this is the third time I have posted this link) this link to an excellent article on divorce:
http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/divorce_remarriage/dr_adultery.html
Jesus set the bar pretty high on divorce. The church should not presume to lower it....likewise with any other sin. Moreover, the church should strive to make sure that 0% of the members of that church on a going forward basis will be a party to a divorce. I don't particularly like that standard, but, that is the Biblical one. I didn't set the rules.
As for "shunning", I don't advocate that any sinners get shunned. I think all of our sins should be dealt with Biblically. Now, within the Body of Christ, some sins are functionally more disruptive than others...that is why the requirements for elders are higher (must not be a new convert and all that). This is proper and Biblical.
Shunning is out of the question. But pretending that the Biblical testimony on divorce as sin is nonexistent is particularly unhelpful, since the family is the main mechanism by which children come into the faith. Without the family, everything gets much more difficult. Sure, God's grace will often intervene dramatically. But we can't rely on that if we are departing from what He has already told us to do.
A few observations from a Mega church (app 43,000 members) goer:
I know who was at church last Sunday and who wasn't. Them that wasn't will be receiving a card. "Is everything OK?"
You must have a photographic memory ;)
Seriously, your church sounds wonderful.
i was taught to use my talents in concert with my gifts.
the spiritual gifts are: prophesying, serving, teaching, encouraging, giving, leading, showing mercy, wisdom, knowledge, faith, healings, miracles, prophecy, discernment of spirits, tongues, interpretation of tongues.
wouldn't leading worship be leading? or singing a solo, encouraging? wouldn't both both demonstrate faith?
"This isn't fun n' games, this is eternity we're talking here. There was no time to waste."
Let me add this. The more I am aware of what Christianity means, the more I realize that I am indeed a sinner, separated entirely from God were it not for His unilateral grace. I desire sanctification...and I know that Scripture is the best tool to accomplish that. In other words, I need to be dealt with harshly, that is Biblically, if progress is going to be made. I WANT to be reminded as often as possible what the Bible requires, because it certainly doesn't come naturally.
Yet...the irony being...the harder way...is the better one. Just feeling good just isn't all that it is cracked up to be.
>>Spiritually not everyone is ready for the 'deeper truths' and some will never be.<<
Direct contradiction to scripture. We are to constantly be growing in grace, sanctifying ourselves, and mortifying our sins - running with endurance the race that is set before us.
>>Is there no place for someone who just gets saved and likes to sit in church, feel good and praise the Lord?<<
Sounds pretty lazy and luke-warm to me. A regenerate heart has a deep, unquenchable yearning for deeper spiritual truths. I have yet to meet a saved person who was content to hang out in kindergarten and sing songs all day.
I can't imagine God using the Holy Spirit to convict a sinner, then leaving them on "idle". Unless you've got some heretofore unknown bit of scripture that says otherwise.
Are you really in a position to speak for what 'most' churches do?
Do you know what goes on in private councelling sessions?
Just as it is easy to coach football from the barkalounger, it is easy to be a Monday morning pastor as well.
"wouldn't leading worship be leading? or singing a solo, encouraging? wouldn't both both demonstrate faith?"
Again, not to sound like I am targeting you, but, leading in church and singing do not demonstrate faith. They show personal belief. Faith is demonstrated when circumstances challenge your belief, and when Satan and the world attack a person and they do right anyway, trusting that obedience to God and His word is better than compromise.
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.
"Not to really rag on you, but to show the limited power of that point:
If that is the case, what about Bubbles, the pole dancer, who's only talent is to selectively expose herself to striptease music? Should she be allowed to dance to the glory of God? I bet she would attract a lot of men to the church. Plus, the offering would be something they look forward to instead of suffer through."
one of the girls that danced in our holiday productions was an ex-stripper. i don't know how good of a stripper she was, but she did well in liturgical dance.
the only talent i haven't figured out how it could be used to glorify God is marksman.
Amen Brother.
That's why the narrow path is so narrow, and so difficult. If it were easy and all about feelin' good, it'd be much wider, I venture.
I always keep in mind, "And you shall be hated by all nations because of my name". True Biblical worship brings persecution from the world - not wild popularity and millions of dollars in book and CD sales.
Praise the Lord and Pass the ammunition!
"The only talent i haven't figured out how it could be used to glorify God is marksman."
You could make the sign of the cross with a well controlled machine gun.
When a lunatic comes into the auditorium, brandishing a gun, a markman is sorely needed to protect the rest of the congregation.
I don't remember the movie, "That's between him and God. My job is to arrange the meeting."
>>the only talent i haven't figured out how it could be used to glorify God is marksman<<
Many soldiers are Christians too.
Reminds me of the joke (which I'm sure you've heard) who's punch line is:
"St. Peter says 'Shhh. Be quiet! They're (insert denomination that thinks they are the one, true worshippers), they think they're the only ones here!"
...leading in church and singing do not demonstrate faith..
your probably right about that one. neither necessarily demonstrates faith.. unless you're leading/ singing in church in a hostile enviroment such as a non-christian country. but that's a whole different situation from megachurches.
I can speak for the content of many large megachurches that I follow and whose content is available on websites, including audio and video. I can also speak of the personal knowledge of what the staff ministers at several large megachurches views on divorce are because the pastors who refuse to perform re-marriages suffer tremendously for their stand.
I can also speak from the knowledge that a few years ago the pastor at First Baptist Atlanta became divorced and has stayed on as a position of pastor (which would I think correspond to elder) which seems to me to be contrary to the Scriptural requirements for eldership.
I can also say that in the decades of attending a megachurch and many aspiring megachurches, I have never once heard these words uttered from the pulpit: "God hates divorce." I was fairly shocked when I first read that.
And I can argue from the fact that the divorce stats are no different among evangelicals than among non-Christians. If divorce were denounced often and Biblically from the pulpit, then, maybe, just maybe, we would see at least a 5 point swing in the right direction among Bible-believing evangelicals.
All in all, I am pretty confident in the assertion that evangelical churches are not, as of late 2005, at war with the American culture of divorce.
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