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To: BnBlFlag
Are you suggesting that Jewish religious organizations be given soveriegn rights in the U.S. and that Rabbi's be given authority to sentence people to death? How about Southern Baptists be allowed to take over everything in Dixie? Lutherans in the upper midwest? Are you out of your mind?

I am sorry you found my words so offensive. I expected a lot of outcry from non-Orthodox Jews, but not from a Confederate.

It is a simple fact that the Jews are a nation in exile, not a "religious denomination." If you will read your Bible (the front of it at any rate) you will see that G-d established a covenant with the Nation of Israel based on the Torah, and you will see that the Torah establishes a Theocratic government and mandates the death penalty for a wide number of offenses (even though the criteria for carrying it out are very stringent).

Up until the modern "enlightenment" nonsense of the past three hundred years the Jews were recognized as as sovereign nation in exile rather than just another "religious denomination" in a multireligious secular state (the multireligious secular state is a recent institution). During the Middle Ages the sovereignty of the Jewish community under its legitimate rulers was recognized, and with the permission of the host nation, those authorities still had the authority to execute the death penalty under certain conditions.

You are angry with me for being sick and tired of @$$holes like Yoffie and Foxman speaking as "rabbis" and "Jewish leaders" and wanting them subject to legitimate Jewish authority? What are you, some sort of Jacobin?

As to Baptists and Lutherans having such authority, I begin to suspect that you know very little about religion. The religion of Baptists and Lutherans, unlike that of Jews, is purely salvational with no legal element whatsoever. In fact, since the days of Martin Luther Protestants have been absolutely dependent on the secular authorities to execute G-d's laws in the state (and those laws have absolutely no bearing on salvation whatsoever according to Protestant theology), while the churches are devoted only to the salvation of the soul. This is one reason Protestants are so devastated by leftist governments--they have no mediating legal/communal structure to stand between them and the secualr state.

214 posted on 11/20/2005 7:31:30 AM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Vehe'emin BeHaShem, vayachsheveha lo tzedaqah.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
It is a simple fact that the Jews are a nation in exile, not a "religious denomination."

Isn't it both?

It is interesting to note that Jews for Jesus is offensive in only one direction. Anyone who truly understands Christian theology understands why that is. Christianity cannot be separated from its jewish roots. Christians who don't get that end up distorting Christianity. Jews who become Christians easily get it. Obviously it means they are renouncing Judiasm from the time of Christ's death and resurrection forward. Obviously. (Can I point out that from a Christian perspective the Judaism of the OT does not seem to be the same religion in many ways as the Judaism of today, except of course for the moral values part.) The theology of Jews for Jesus is pure Christian theology. The offense to religous Jews who do not believe Jesus is their Messiah is obvious, but the doctrine is also obvious. It's just one of those things that can't be resolved. It's not intended to be an offense but it unavoidably is and always has been. As long as it's only Gentiles, the offense is easier to overlook. But Christianity itself is really the offense. That's the bottom line,

That said, in the political world it doesn't matter. We are allies, and frankly I have grown to appreciate religious Jews more than some Christians, as Christians can sometimes commit the offense of using grace to transform God into an unholy, sin-friendly, mushy sort of diety who bows to man rather than the other way around.

236 posted on 11/21/2005 9:29:35 AM PST by The Ghost of FReepers Past ("The President and I cannot prevent certain politicians from losing their memory, or their backbone)
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