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To: Zionist Conspirator
ve you ever noticed that the "official branches of Judaism" consist only of Orthodoxy and liberal heresies, with no room for more "conservative" heresies like "messianics," Qara'im, or others (and there are a few conservative heretics of various stripes around)? The liberals are trying to monopolize the name of Judaism for themselves, which is why they restrict the "branches" to the Orthodox (real Judaism) and themselves. I don't know why the Orthodox continue to put up with the "branch" bushwah; it has become so transparent.

Actually, there are Qara'im or Karaites in America. I know of two congregations. I just wish that there were one in New York.
Among Rabbinic Jews there is more diversity that Orthodox and Liberal. The Liberal groups include Conservative/Masort, Reform, and Reconstructionist (Deconstructionist is more like it). Among the Orthodox there are Modern Orthodox, Ultra-Orthodox Traditionalists, and quite a few Hasidic movements. Finally, Askenazi, Sephardic, Persian, and Near Eastern Jews have different liturgies even among Rabbinic Orthodox.

I am not sure what you mean by Messianic. Waiting for the Messiah is one the 13 articles of Faith set for by Rabbi Moses ben Maimon (Rambam,Maimonedes) in the 13th century. All Orthodox Rabbinic Jews and most others longingly look for the Messiah.
However, I suspect that you mean Judaized Christians or gateway groups to Christianity.
I don't mean to be rude, but if you believe that Jesus was the Messiah and/or the son of God, you are a Christian, not a Jew.
You wouldn't accept a group like "Christians for Mohammed", which see Mohammed as the last Prophet, as Christian.
201 posted on 11/19/2005 11:19:37 PM PST by rmlew (Sedition and Treason are both crimes, not free speech.)
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To: rmlew; Zionist Conspirator

Well put. Karaites are rare. There's probably only about 50, 000 worldwide, if that. They are generally accepted as Jews, although outsiders may not see them as Jews (Nazis didn't, interestingly enough). There are a couple out there.

Another interesting example is that the Greek Jews use the Jerusalem Talmud, as opposed to the Babylonian Talmud.

But as rmlew said, if you believe Jesus was the son of G-d, or the Messiah, you are a Christian. Which is fine and good, but it's not the same as being a Jew.

Judaism's beliefs are very clearly laid out, and given there aren't that many of us anyways, and it's pretty flexible in terms of orthodoxy, the official branches just basically are classified by degree of orthodoxy.


207 posted on 11/20/2005 6:37:55 AM PST by Alexander Rubin (Octavius - You make my heart glad building thus, as if Rome is to be eternal.)
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To: rmlew
I don't mean to be rude, but if you believe that Jesus was the Messiah and/or the son of God, you are a Christian, not a Jew.

A Jew is anyone born of a Jewish mother or Halakhically converted to Judaism, regardless of belief or lack of it. If atheists, b*ddhists, and pagans can be Halakhically Jewish I see no reason why that adjective should be denied to "Hebrew chr*stians."

I am aware of all the other things you said. However, my point was that Qara'im and other small-o "orthodox" heresies are never included in the "branches of Judaism," which always consist of Orthodoxy smothered by liberals.

I once met a young man who believed the Written Torah was from Heaven but who rejected the rest of the Bible (as well as the Oral Torah) and even rejected the doctrine of an afterlife. While he certainly was not an Orthodox Jew, I fail to see why his belief system failed to qualify as a "branch of Judaism" just as much as "reform," "reconstructionism," and "secular humanistic Judaism."

215 posted on 11/20/2005 7:39:53 AM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Vehe'emin BeHaShem, vayachsheveha lo tzedaqah.)
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To: rmlew
You wouldn't accept a group like "Christians for Mohammed", which see Mohammed as the last Prophet, as Christian.

I am not a chr*stian and I do not accept "Jews for J*sus" as orthodox Jews. I merely point out that being born of a Jewish mother makes one a Jew according to Halakhah, and to make apostasy to chr*stianity the one and only occasion when a Jew is "declassified" is not only hypocritical but feeds anti-Semitic stereotypes about "Jews not caring what you believe so long as you are not a chr*stian."

I am afraid that Jews will never understand why Fundamentalist chr*stians cannot see the parallel between Jews for J*sus and chr*stians for Mohammed. The Fundamentalist Protestant notion of Judaism and chr*stianity being in fact a single religion (with chr*stians as "completed Jews," G-d forbid) stems from the Protestant Bible. Because the only thing that separates the TaNa"KH from the "new testament" is the turn of a few pages, because the Bible has no commentary printed with it to explain anything, because this is the only bible the Fundamentalist Protestant has ever known, he simply cannot fathom the idea that the "new testament" doesn't really belong. He deals with the contradictions between "the two testaments" with the same attitude that devout Jews have with regard to "contradictions" between the Sages: 'Ellue va'ellu divrei-'Eloqim Chayyim. Chr*stians are "completed Jews" because they have the "completed Bible." "Why did you people tear the "new testament" out, anyway?" [/sarcasm]

Fundamentalist Protestants do not understand the comparsion with moslems being "completed chr*stians" because Mohammed didn't tack the koran onto the chr*stian bible to "complete it." If he had, all these "Bible-believing chr*stians" might be "bible-believing moslems" today.

216 posted on 11/20/2005 7:48:51 AM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Vehe'emin BeHaShem, vayachsheveha lo tzedaqah.)
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