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To: Jason_b
... almost all their income is dedicated to servicing their debt ...   ...Our nation is now the latter kind of debtor. We as a nation roll over old debt and borrow to pay the interest service. Am I wrong about this too?

Sounds like you're saying that most of America's income is going to service debt.   Actually, debt service is falling as percentage of revenue on the federal level, just as assets are increasing faster than liabilities on the private level.

You won't hear it from the MSM, but the US is really a lot more solvent than America-bashers are willing to admit.

127 posted on 11/17/2005 12:38:11 PM PST by expat_panama
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To: expat_panama
I don't disagree with what you are saying. We are solvent so far as we can acquire legal tender to pay our debts. You seem to be aware of our relative ability to do so.

And I don't mean to be difficult or contrary, or even conspiratorial. But what we consider solvency is defined differently today than it was under a gold or bimetallic standard. I'm not claiming to be an expert here.

But takes no expert to figure out that if you didn't have enough gold and silver to pay your debts, back in the days of the standard, you were insolvent. Today everyone is excused from having gold and silver to pay debts, because we have accepted the idea that it is ok to pay debts (more accurately discharge them with limited liability) with legal tender pieces of paper (LTPOP) OR without changing the subject the computer bits that represent dollars in an account, that signify a bank credit, debt to us. Now because evidence of someone else's liability is going around changing hands, I have a chance to earn it with my work. When I get hold of this paper, I can make a car payment. But I can only do this because someone else borrowed that LTPOP and spent it sending it forth into the economy. The person who did this will either have to roll his debt over, or try to get someone else's LTPOP to repay his loan according to schedule, or default which would leave his debt in the economy, but changes who expects to receive future payments of legal tender. The ability to do this does not mean we are not bankrupt! We are bankrupt within the gold/silver and constitutional frame of reference. But we seem solvent in the fiat money frame of reference only because of our understanding that we can roll the loans over and borrow more. We have changed financial frames of reference from wealth based gold and silver, to debt based fiat, and we get along this way now. This is why the national debt can explode the way it is. Imagine if our central bank called all its original loans that have rolled over year after year; you'd see cascading defaults and the economy would stop with the only economic activity left a few people with gold trying to buy and everyone else trying to survive in a state of nature.

I'm not saying we're poor, or dooomed, or in the grip of eeeevil bankers.

I'm only saying we are continuing commercial operations in backruptcy using a commercial instrument that benefits us by allowing us to operate outside Constitutional bounds, and that it is not free. There are associated costs and detriments that affect our society.

The old saying, "gold is the only financial asset that is not simultaneously someone else's liability," is true, more or less, you can pick at the way it is phrased and leaves out silver, but the point is made. Our currency today, is someone else's liability. All of it. And since it, and not gold, is what we use as a frame of reference, it is no surprise that reckoning our ability to service our debts is made with respect to our official debt-based currency, not gold.

Even an United States Note is a liability, the Treasury would have been liable to redeem the Note for the value on the Note's face, in silver coin. This was accepted when the Treasury was honoring redemption. But when you redeemed it you at least got silver that could be used as money in the same manner, and had to be paid back to no one, nor rolled over into the next loan.

There is nothing of substance to redeem FRNs for, all they'll do is get the taxman off your back temporarily and let you buy stuff at stores. As I said earlier, they are a certificate of debt that accomplishes a few legal ends, creates a perpetual obligation, and that is it.

I don't think you were accusing me of America Bashing. I didn't take it that way. But others may have. And it is not bashing America to want to see her debt-free once again.

130 posted on 11/17/2005 2:03:59 PM PST by Jason_b
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