Posted on 11/15/2005 2:32:39 AM PST by holymoly
November 15, 2005: The U.S. Army’s cancellation of the XM8 (a replacement for the M16) reflects disenchantment with the 5.56mm round, more than anything else. While the 5.56mm bullet was OK when used in an automatic weapon, it is much less useful when you have so many troops who know how to shoot, and can hit targets just as easily with single shots. In addition to better shooting skills, the troops also have much better sights, both for day and night use. It’s much more effective to fire less often, if you have troops who can do that and hit what they are shooting at with the first shot. Most American troops can.
Moreover, the 5.56mm round is less effective in urban fighting, where you often want to shoot through doors and walls. The 5.56mm round is not as effective at doing this as is the heavier 7.62mm bullet. And the troops have plenty of 7.62mm weapons available, in order to compare. There is the M240 medium machine-gun. While this 7.62mm weapon is usually mounted on vehicles, it is often taken off and used by infantry for street fighting. Lots of 1960s era 7.62mm M14 rifles have also been taken out of storage and distributed. While used mainly as sniper rifles, the snipers do other work on the battlefield as well, and the troops have been able to see that the heavier 7.62mm round does a better job of shooting through cinder block walls, and taking down bad guys with one shot. Too often, enemy troops require several 5.56mm bullets to put them out of action.
In a situation like that, it makes more sense to carry a heavier round. The question is, which one? The army has been experimenting with a 6.8mm round, but now some are demanding that the full size 7.62mm round be brought back. There are M16 type weapons that use the full size 7.62mm round (and the lower powered AK-47 7.62mm round). The new SOCOM SCAR rifle can quickly be adapted to using all of the above by swapping out the barrel and receiver. Could be that the army is going to wait and see what SOCOM decides to do.
The other big complaint about the M16 is it’s sensitivity to fine dust, as found in Iraq and, to a lesser extent, Afghanistan. This stuff causes the rifle (and the light machine-gun version, the M243), to jam. Troops have to be cleaning these weapons constantly. Another problem with the M243 is that most of the ones in service are very old, and in need of a replacement (with new M243s, or a new weapon design.) The XM8 solved much of the “dust sensitivity” problem, but part of the problem was the smaller round.
A decision on the army’s new assault rifle will probably come sooner, rather than later, because the troops fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan are making a lot of Internet noise over the issue.
"The Green Tip actually has better knock down power and penetration than the 7.62 round at longer distances because of it's speed."
E=(wt*v2)/450240
147*2600sq)/450240 = 2207ft/lbs for the 7.62
62*2600/450240 = 930ft/lbs for pipsqueek mouse gun.
I did my BCT at Fort Knox in '69.I had never held a weapon before.Ours was the last cycle at Ft Knox to qualify on the M-14 and the first to qualify on the M-16.I always found the M-14 to be more accurate (I scored much better with it) but the M-16 to be much more fun,particularly when they let us slip it into automatic,which happened a couple of times.
Rifle range was just about the most fun that this kid from the suburbs had had up until then.
Where can I purchase a case of these rounds?
My beloved M203 didn't see any action in Iraq. The problem is this - Indirect fire + blast radius = civilian casualties.
On that same line, most Mk-19s that sat in storage while people clamored over the Ma Deuces. The Mk-19 is a great weapon, just not in an occupied city. Still, I was always glad to have 7x HE and 2x smoke in my leg rig, just in case. I remember clearing one room where a sleepy muj woke up and found himself staring down the barrel of my M203. You've never seen eyes go that wide. He was definitely happy to surrender at that point.
Don't go to war with itty bitty bullets.
well they list a Little Rock business in the article but I believe they are a distributor.
Sounds like we need to go back to the M14. It basically shoots a .30-06, right?
I see your view of the wounded...and with this enemy, I understand how we end up the care givers. FWIW, I am of the take no prisoners mentality...
Its was shelved awhile ago. But the stated reason was not the caliber round. They wanted the weapon to be modular "in the field", and the designers made it so it could be modified by the soldier to go from a small Carbine, to a standard Infantry rifle, into a sniper rifle. But the Army wanted a rifle that could be modified to a light machine gun ala M249, which H&K couldn't do. So they shelved the whole program until a designer can do that. The Army is not as dissastisfied with the 5.56 round as civillian gun enthusiasts. I wouldn't count on anything larger than the 6.8mm. Those who think the M-14 would seriously be brought back into service are nuts!
Dad swears by the BAR - but then, he carried one all over Korea with the USMC.
well I don't know about that... I think all the talk about how "mean" we are and how we torture folks and killing the wounded is in fact helping the muj and hurting us. Please just follow this....
If you (the enemy) think we are pussies and treat prisoners with kid gloves and they get 3 hots and a cot plus a koran...well in the middle of a fire fight or after seeing a couple of the houses filled with their buddies blow up. They're (the weaker ones or the ones sitting on the fence)not going to mind giving up to us. But if we're painted as torturers and kill 'em all types then they've got no reason to quit or surrender. Thus making it necessary to actually kill them.... all of them.
As an example, think about this. How many Marines have surrendered in combat in Iraq. The reason they won't is bravery, honor, and also way back in their minds they know if they give up... the Muj is going to put them on the Internet and slit their throat for everybody to see. So I'm guessing every single dude at a forward position has made his mind up to go down slinging lead, grenades and a knife rather than be captured. I know that's the only way I'd go down.... cause I'm chicken sh#t when it comes to having my throat slit for the viewing of the general public.
That's why we (the US) treats it's prisoners fairly well once captured. Of course, sometimes we don't...... or as the great philosopher Patrick Swayze said in "Roadhouse".... "be NICE.... until it's time to NOT BE NICE.".... of course that's only my opinion and I could be wrong.
M14 shoots 7.62x51mm NATO round (aka .308 Winchester).
"He called the M16 "Mattel" from all the plastic."
Some of them were manufactured by Mattel. Of course that was back when we still made things in this country.
bttt!!
Haven't seen you 'round in a coons age!
Of course, a .308--I'm getting senile.
I suspect the troops like the handiness but it must take 2-300fps off the velocity, maybe even more.
It would seem an HK-5 would do about the same thing in close quarters.
I actually think the perfect battle cartridge has already been developed way back in the 19th centure. The 6.5 Swedish Mauser, although I would love to see just how well the 6mm Lee Navy would do with modern guns and powder. I have read reports of the Marines using them in the Boxer rebellion and other European soldiers being impressed.
my old 166MhZ finally broke a couple years ago and it took me over a year to get a good one! now, i'm in stealth mode after returning and po'n JR off a couple times... the sit-rep site is no more, but there is activity at my new face if you follow my bio-link... there are some familiar faces over there...
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