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To: Sun

"When he left Indiana at 14 in the 1930's he also left religion."

Before he was an adult. IOW, before he had any religious instruction on an adult level, or considered the question with the understanding and maturity of an adult.

So common; so tragic. It's odd: we don't let kids quit school or enter into contracts at that age, because we hold that they lack the capacity to make good decisions. But when people that age make a much more important decision, one that concerns their immortal souls, we don't bat an eye.

"OTOH, he was the most moral man I ever knew."

Gee, I wonder where he learned that.

"I have played "Amazing Grace" more times than I have witnessed such behavior by believers. Grace and humility may be Christian ideals, but they are not Christian habits."

You need to read your C. S. Lewis. You criticize Christians for their faults, but you have no way of knowing how bad they would be if they weren't Christians. They fall well short of perfection, but how can you know how far they have come from what they once were?

"I don't think that there are "atheists". Everyone believes in something that cannot be proven."

I agree with that, in the main, but I think that most of those in Western Civ (which excludes Russia) who claim to be atheists are actually in a condition analogous to adolescent rebellion against God.

"I know believers that consider evolution to be the present state of human biological knowledge and nothing more. I include myself in this group."

That is all that ID is.

"The mention of "God", in the affirmative or negative, would be in the wrong venue. Any science teacher who would say; "This proves there is no God", to a class, has an agenda."

It's not necessary to come right out with those words to communicate the concept clearly to students.

"Likewise for the Fundamentalists."

I disagree. I have seen fundamentalists teach a number of subjects without bringing their personal beliefs into it.

The difference is that atheism stems from evil, and evil always attacks good. That is its nature. Fundamentalism does not derive from evil, and is therefore not driven to attack.

"No. You are more than free to teach Creationism/ID in your house of worship but not in the public school house. The latter is mandatory and there must be standards"

Standards? What kind of standards? No standards are applied when teachers scorn religion in the classroom. No standards are applied when a student who has been molested by a homo is sent to a homo recruiter for counseling.

I entered the public school system in 1956, and back then we started every day with the pledge of allegiance and a prayer. We had prayers before assemblies and sporting events. No one was "forced" to pray, as though such a thing would be possible. We had fundamentalists, skeptics, mainstream Protestants, Catholics, and Jews, and nobody got their skivvies in a knot because other people wanted to pray in their own way. We decorated the classrooms for Easter and Christmas, and had pageants and plays.

To exclude prayer and all mention of those religions from the public school constitutes the establishment of a state religion -- atheism -- not least because the only reason to exclude such things from public schools is that they might be harmful.

Such radical rebellion against God was never foreseen by the Framers of the Constitution. In fact, in the early decades of the Republic, the Bible was often used as a textbook (for reading and moral instruction, not history or science).

The Supreme Court rulings forbidding the free exercise of religion in schools and elsewhere are as incorrect as Roe v. Wade.


547 posted on 11/16/2005 5:58:05 PM PST by dsc
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To: dsc
You need to read your C. S. Lewis. You criticize Christians for their faults, but you have no way of knowing how bad they would be if they weren't Christians. They fall well short of perfection, but how can you know how far they have come from what they once were?

So are you saying that the "bad" Christians we observe would be raving sociopaths if not for their Christianity?

It's not like I haven't heard from other Christians who have openly stated that they would be mass-murderers if not for their religion. Whenever I hear such a confession I feel fortunate that I am not so personally depraved that I require the threat of eternal damnation hanging over my head to keep me from engaging in ruthless violent acts.

I agree with that, in the main, but I think that most of those in Western Civ (which excludes Russia) who claim to be atheists are actually in a condition analogous to adolescent rebellion against God. To which "God", out of the thousands worshipped and acknowledged throughout human history, do you refer?

Remember that the Christian God isn't the only one out there. Atheists lack belief in all gods, not yours in particular.

It's not necessary to come right out with those words to communicate the concept clearly to students.

So how do you think that this concept is being communicated? Be specific.

The difference is that atheism stems from evil, and evil always attacks good.

This is your presumption. Why should I believe that atheism stems from evil? If you can't support this assertion then any arguments you make from it are meaningless.

Standards? What kind of standards? No standards are applied when teachers scorn religion in the classroom.

Evidence for this assertion?

No standards are applied when a student who has been molested by a homo is sent to a homo recruiter for counseling.

Evidence for this assertion?

The Supreme Court rulings forbidding the free exercise of religion in schools and elsewhere are as incorrect as Roe v. Wade.

Which USSC ruling forbade the free excercise of religion in schools and elsewhere. Please be specific.
554 posted on 11/16/2005 7:03:26 PM PST by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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