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To: Alia

"I would think however, in those locations where the terrorists are arsoning, the residents might not be of the "caliber" to meet the requirements for owning basic self-defense weaponry against these thugs. Or, do you think, there's an over-reliance upon French Police?"

One can always own hunting weapons.
However, it is true that in the banlieux, probably many wouldn't qualify for gun ownership (other than hunting weapons). Is there over-reliance on the police? No. In the banlieux there are many who loathe the police, and not all are criminals. French police have a bad habit of beating up Arabs. They are not trusted.

Truth is, for the most part law and order is kept because most people just keep it. It is not because everybody is armed, or because everyone is supervised, but rather because most people are civilized. However in the banlieux there are also criminal gangs who enforce their own order. They are sometimes armed, but mostly don't need to be, other than with knives.

Proof of the basic degree of civilization that people have, even in the middle of a riot, is that all of those guns that everyone knows are hidden about in the HLM have not been turned on anyone, even the police for the most part, after 12 days of riots. The radical Islamists among the population who want to radicalize the situation may start shooting police and civilans in order to provoke a violent backlash.
That is my greatest fear at the moment. The Islamists are frustrated, because the Beur are just not killers or jihadists. They are pissed off youth, unemployed and angry for the most part, but they don't care much about Islam (or anything), and they don't want to kill anybody.
The Islamists need them to definitively REJECT French society and be willing to kill it and French people.
But the Beur aren't.

So, what to do?
If Muslim radicals start shooting the police and civilians, the reaction will probably not distinguish, and that could well radicalize some of the Beur, transforming street thugs into jihadists.

That could also backfire, however. It could cause the Beur to pull back inside and calm down, because they don't go for that sort of thing. That would leave the jihadis dangerously exposed and probably improve the overall circumstances of security in France...although the cars will still get burnt next time around if the fundamental problem of exclusion is not fixed.


190 posted on 11/07/2005 5:28:48 PM PST by Vicomte13 (Et alors?)
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To: Vicomte13
"banlieux". Found an article which details what "banlieux" means. Paris-sur-Jungle

The banlieux are what we refer to as the US "inner cities".

French police have a bad habit of beating up Arabs

Why do think the French police do this?

The radical Islamists among the population who want to radicalize the situation may start shooting police and civilans in order to provoke a violent backlash. That is my greatest fear at the moment.

I am fully with you there in sharing that worry.

"Beur". The Beur Question: The Multi-Spatial Political Identity within France [May, 2000]

snip:

Beurs, second-generation North Africans, who are born of immigrant parents, but have all the rights and privileges of citizenship, thus translating to access to the French State. Thus, at the core of the immigration debate in France lies the nature of Beur political identity.

end snip.

The Islamists are frustrated, because the Beur are just not killers or jihadists. They are pissed off youth, unemployed and angry for the most part, but they don't care much about Islam (or anything), and they don't want to kill anybody. The Islamists need them to definitively REJECT French society and be willing to kill it and French people. But the Beur aren't.

From my first link in this post:

snip:

The problems arose with the second and third generations. Some began to turn toward Islam, the religion of their parents. "They began to mystify their country of origin," said Antoine Sfeir, editor in chief of Les Cahiers d'Orient, a publication that covers the Arab world. "They also began to mystify Islam, their parents' religion, often one of which they knew very little."

"Then you have to factor in unemployment and life in the 'ghetto,'" says Khadija Mohsen-Finan, who specializes in Arab world studies for the French Institute for International Relations in Paris, IFRI.

Often faced with discrimination and lack of education, an increasing number of the young fell into petty crime, pushing drugs, pick-pocketing, etc., and soon found themselves in prison. Although Muslims make up about 10 percent of France's population, they represent close to 60 percent of the country's incarcerated population.

"There, in prison, the imams were waiting for them," said Sfeir. More precisely, it was radical imams who turned to recruit followers in the jails of France. This trend was being repeated across Europe.

It was mostly in jail that many of these petty criminals turned radical. "Radicalism will be expressed in actions," warned Sfeir.

"Why do they identify with Islam?" asks Mohsen-Finan. "Lack of integration," she replies.

end snip.

Lack of skills does not equal "discrimination". It means that one does not have employable skills. Pure and simply. Did the Beurs go to schools? Did their parents not see the need for their children to have an education and/or skills?

All of the above indeed begs the question: Why did they not wish to assimilate into the country they immigrated (legally or illegally) to. What an awful inheritance to leave one's children and grandchildren -- no skills, and in such a location as France.

201 posted on 11/07/2005 6:01:15 PM PST by Alia
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