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Shroud of Turin — Local scientist says the cloth covered Christ
Deseret Morning News ^ | November 5, 2005 | Carrie Moore

Posted on 11/06/2005 12:38:04 PM PST by NYer

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To: Foundahardheadedwoman

I'm glad you didn't aim that at me because I do not need proof.


61 posted on 11/06/2005 8:08:25 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Revolting cat!

Paul McCartney's dead?!?!?


62 posted on 11/06/2005 8:21:50 PM PST by kalee
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To: kalee

I think the walrus killed him.


63 posted on 11/06/2005 8:40:43 PM PST by Nihil Obstat
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To: cryptical

It really doesn't matter what you believe or how liberated you are in your thinking....one day every knee will bow (including yours). Either we're right and you're on your way to a fire that eternally burns --- or we're wrong, in which case we'll all sleep with the worms. If I were a betting man, with those odds.......


64 posted on 11/06/2005 8:52:32 PM PST by cowdog77
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To: Mercat

"Seems to me that if the DNA matches the house of Levi ... Jesus was not born to that house."

Even more confusingly, there's more than one Levite line. A small number of Ashkenazic male Levites (myself included) are a direct descendent of Khazarian converts about a millenia ago. Google for R1a haplotype


65 posted on 11/07/2005 2:01:40 AM PST by adam_az (It's the border, stupid!)
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To: cowdog77

"It really doesn't matter what you believe or how liberated you are in your thinking....one day every knee will bow (including yours). Either we're right and you're on your way to a fire that eternally burns --- or we're wrong, in which case we'll all sleep with the worms. If I were a betting man, with those odds......."

Oh it's not that simple. What if you're both wrong and the Calvinists are right, and God only predestines salvation for some? Or maybe the Jehovahs Witnesses are right, and we're all burning in hell... except for 144000 of them? What if you're both wrong, and Jesus is not the Hebrew Messiah? What if you're right but the penalty for being wrong isn't burning in eternal hell-fire? After all, that doesn't sound like a loving God, to me!


66 posted on 11/07/2005 2:13:04 AM PST by adam_az (It's the border, stupid!)
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To: NYer
Barrie Schwortz, a Jewish researcher and member of the original 1978 Shroud of Turin Research Project (STURP) team, said his knowledge of research on the shroud leads him to believe the image on the cloth "is not the product of a scorch," even a very mild one like Nitowski described.

"There are many known scorches on the Shroud from the fire in 1532. Scorched linen will fluoresce, and as expected, the scorched images (on the shroud) do show fluorescence, but it's not a product of heated linen in the image the way a scorch would be. I believe there is ample scientific evidence to support that."

Schwortz now owns and operates an active Web site on the shroud, www.shroud.com. He said he believes the shroud is most likely authentic, but moving from skeptical science to active advocacy of that position took him about 18 years of study.

"I became an advocate based on direct involvement and personal examination of the cloth. I expected to see the brush strokes (that many have speculated were used to paint the image) and come home. But there is no paint. This is not a painting. Then it became a question of what is it."

For him, science became advocacy "when the weight of all the science together leads in one direction. I believe that's the case with the exception of the radiocarbon dating."

Skeptics take note.

According to several scholarly papers and a book by author Ian Wilson called "The Blood and the Shroud," the particles of dirt on the Shroud of Turin provided a close chemical match to the samples Nitowski took from the tombs. At the time, Kohlbeck acknowledged that his work was not proof that the shroud was in Jerusalem and that there might be other places in the world where aragonite has the identical chemical composition.

Interesting.

67 posted on 11/07/2005 4:28:08 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: cryptical
So if we were to clone Jesus from the blood, would that be the Second Coming, or a false Second Coming?

The clone would be nothing more than a twin, right? He would not necessarily have a divine nature.

68 posted on 11/07/2005 4:30:08 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Tanniker Smith
I'm not sure I like the idea of DNA testing of the blood on the Shroud. Can you imagine if some whacko tries to use a drop of blood and whatever DNA markers to make a clone . . .

The blood type also matches the Eucharistic miracle of Lanciano. So there's more than one source of Jesus' blood.

69 posted on 11/07/2005 4:33:35 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Al Simmons
More significantly, the blood type on the Shroud (which I maintain is actually the "Mandylion" shroud that was kept in Constantinople until it was probably saved from the advancing Turks) is identical to that on the Sudarium (the cloth that covered the head of the crucified Christ) which can be traced back to New Testatement times, and which is in the Cathedral of Oviedo in Spain.

AND the Crown of Thorns in Paris, AND the Miraculous cardiac tissue in Naples, AND...all AB-.

70 posted on 11/07/2005 4:37:36 AM PST by Desdemona (Music Librarian and provider of cucumber sandwiches, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary. Hats required.)
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To: kingu
it is a thing of faith.

Does the fact that scientists cannot duplicate the image or explain its genesis count for anything? At the very least, the argument for the Shroud's supernatural origin is highly probable.

71 posted on 11/07/2005 4:38:30 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Doctor Don
when the burial lotions were added

But, see, they hadn't been added yet. That's what the women were going to do on Easter morning when they met the angel and Christ was already risen and gone.

72 posted on 11/07/2005 4:40:48 AM PST by Desdemona (Music Librarian and provider of cucumber sandwiches, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary. Hats required.)
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To: Nihil Obstat
I think the walrus killed him.

For the last time, "The walrus was Paul"! ;-)

73 posted on 11/07/2005 4:43:33 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: adam_az
What if you're right but the penalty for being wrong isn't burning in eternal hell-fire? After all, that doesn't sound like a loving God, to me!

God is just. He provides hell for those who choose it.

74 posted on 11/07/2005 4:44:55 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: NYer
Why is it so hard to accept that we could have an artifact of the historical Jesus? I would think that would be welcome.

I don't understand why it's so hard to accept that this could be Christ's burial shroud. We have articles of history much older than this linen. It's amazing how religion can spark such a response of doubt and second-guessing.

75 posted on 11/07/2005 4:47:04 AM PST by rarestia ("One man with a gun can control 100 without one." - Lenin / Molwn Labe!)
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To: UCANSEE2

I can tell from several posts in this thread that for some people, Jesus is a joke. That is why we are told "...not to worship... idols, or images...." Relics and artifacts may be "holy" to some, but also are objects of derision for others.

My personal faith in Jesus as my savior would not be changed one bit if they prove or disprove the shroud. I remember reading about some lady in Hiroshima who had the pattern of her silk dress transferred to her skin after the atomic bomb blast, so I see how a burst of energy could imprint some image on a cloth, but if not, so what?

Scientists say yes, scientists say no. The fact is, NO scientist can describe with absolute certainty any unique past event without corroboration from a verifiable, independent observer.

Time will tell. "For now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face."


76 posted on 11/07/2005 5:09:05 AM PST by GadareneDemoniac
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To: Swordmaker

Thanks for the ping. I believe it's Jesus and proof comes as science evolves.


77 posted on 11/07/2005 7:52:46 AM PST by ex-snook (Vote gridlock for the most conservative government)
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To: NYer

Bumpus ad summum


78 posted on 11/07/2005 8:21:16 PM PST by Dajjal
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To: GadareneDemoniac

Yes, darkly. Where the veil was rent in the mind and shut it off from perceiving 'face to face'.

But soon the veil will be lifted.

To that time.

( :}


79 posted on 11/07/2005 8:46:10 PM PST by UCANSEE2 (I jez calls it az I see it.)
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To: NYer

INTREP


80 posted on 11/10/2005 5:01:21 PM PST by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America)
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