[MNJohnnie]

Your remarks indicate you don't even grasp the nature of the debate over renewal of Patriot and certain provisions.

Making a personal attack in place of answering the question is intellectually indefensiable. I now you kiddes think that "makes your point" it does not. Here we are adults and expect adult behavior. Answer the question Please. No more ranting about mythical make belive, Answer the question.

Please cite for me three specific instances where the Patriot Act has been used to infringe on Civil Liberties. Not generic "what ifs" but specific instances of real abuses.

[George W. Bush]

Making a personal attack in place of answering the question is intellectually indefensiable. I now you kiddes think that "makes your point" it does not. Here we are adults and expect adult behavior. Answer the question Please. No more ranting about mythical make belive, Answer the question.

I have no reason to play your game or even to attack your straw man. Your argument presupposes that the only valid objection to Patriot I & II could be if there are abuses. There have been some excesses. But that has nothing to do with my objections.

Given that reasoning, we would never have had the Bill Of Rights since the abuses they were designed to curtail had not yet been committed by an American government. And yet, the colonists (farmers, merchants, etc.) insisted on them before we finished the original Constitutional process.

Again, I'll say: "Your remarks indicate you don't even grasp the nature of the debate over renewal of Patriot and certain provisions."

Fortunately, the Founders and the ordinary citizens of that time were far more cynical about federal powers than you are. I still find it hard to believe that there are elements at FreeRepublic who are such blatantly supine statists. It's very different than the constitutionalists who once dominated the forum.

BTW, Johnnie, you're on the outside of this fight. Your Coleman isn't too useful, being a little too new to make an impact and your Dim is simply useless to all parties. OTOH, I have two senators that represent me quite well and who both understand that citizens of my state don't like to empower the feds to the extent that Patriot I did. And they hear from me on all the major issues. So you're not a player in any meaningful sense since your senators are almost guaranteed to cancel each other on Patriot. But my senators work together on the major issues. And they (and I) are on the same page. Neither they nor I give a hoot what the national Dim or GOP establishments thinks about it either.

In brief, on this issue it sucks to be you. When you find a way to make your reps move in your direction, let me know.