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Picky female frogs drive evolution of new species in less than 8,000 years
UC Berkeley News Center ^ | 27 October 2005 | Robert Sanders

Posted on 11/02/2005 10:54:52 AM PST by PatrickHenry

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To: P-Marlowe
"Actually you have absolutely NO evidence that supports the "evolution of life" on earth. None. I've challenged you guys a thousand times on these threads and the stock answer is that the question is irrelevant."

That isn't true, and you know it. We have time and time again provided you with the evidence, and you just ignore it. Nobody has said that it is *irrelevant* because no evolutionist thinks the matter of evidence is irrelevant. The evidence for evolution is overwhelming except for those who don't want to know.

If you are talking about the origins of life, that doesn't have anything to do with the ToE. The evolution of life and the origins of life are two different things. Evolution is agnostic about the origins.
301 posted on 11/03/2005 12:52:49 PM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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XenuDidit placemark


302 posted on 11/03/2005 12:55:08 PM PST by dread78645 (Sorry Mr. Franklin, We couldn't keep it.)
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To: b_sharp
If the communities were at one time combined then the calls must have been the same. It is easy to determine if the two groups have shared genes in the past.

Just because they were living together in the past doesn't mean the calls were the same. It's speculation. The business about genes is a red herring. Are you suggesting you can tell what kind of mating call they had in the past, based on DNA?

303 posted on 11/03/2005 12:58:16 PM PST by Rocky (Air America: Robbing the poor to feed the Left)
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To: P-Marlowe
Actually you have absolutely NO evidence that supports the "evolution of life" on earth. None. I've challenged you guys a thousand times on these threads and the stock answer is that the question is irrelevant.

Ha ha ha ha, ho, ha, hee, ha, ha, ha ha ha ha, ho, ha, hee, ha, ha!!! Too funny.

Oh, wait. You were serious.

304 posted on 11/03/2005 1:01:19 PM PST by RogueIsland
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To: flevit
"I do not share your certainty of more than one mass extinction. hydrology, sedimentation, of a liquid catatrophy that large would be tough to predict the outcome, and could form layering that could easily be mistaken as seperate events, not to mention the effect that would do to elements and their decay (un-knowable).

It sounds like you are reaching. For there to have been only one flood, many physical laws would have to be suspended. There is no way for creationists to explain the dating differences of the layers combined with the types of fossils found in the layers. The separation of fossils is not along any lines that make sense if you assume a single catastrophic event.

If you want just so stories, consider the various speculations by the so-called creation scientists. They not on make up just-so stories, they suspend just about all we know and accept of a number of physical laws including the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

Many extreme pressure tests have been conducted on radioactive materials. No significant changes to their decay rates have been found, certainly nothing that would result in errors as large as creation supposes. Have you considered the enormous heat that would result from increased decay rates? If decay rates of any of the materials used in radiometric dating were fast enough during the flood, the energy released would have boiled the oceans and every living thing on the ark. At the end, there would be no water left (the heat would break the water molecules apart and most of the hydrogen would escape) and no life left.

305 posted on 11/03/2005 1:07:05 PM PST by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: P-Marlowe
You have not provided a single shred of evidence for the "evolution of life", you have only provided evidence for the inherent design of the adaptability of the creation.

Me personally, no, I'm not an evolutionary biologist.

However, there is a wealth of information out there regarding what course evolution has taken in the distant past. There is a wealth of information showing that genome is equipped to make evolutionary changes and evidence in the inherent structure of our DNA that it has done so in the past. All the data intersects at the same conclusion - that life on earth has evolved and it continues to do so.

You have a case of a mere 8000 years (a blink of an eye in the earth's history) producing a marked case of speciation - the first step of evolution. What mechanism do you believe exists that would prevent further change (call it "adaptation" or whatever you want) from happening? Do you think it's possible that frogs and toads have a common ancestor? Or did God create frogs and toads in their different "present forms"?

306 posted on 11/03/2005 1:08:22 PM PST by Quark2005 (Science aims to elucidate. Pseudoscience aims to obfuscate.)
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To: flevit
"I would dare say you have NO IDEA what a "one catastrophe" could or could not do, one castatrophy, could have many different compositions weather,deluges,respites,deluges, earthquakes,tremors,earthquakes,eruptions,steamvents,respites, repeat. not to mention how this would effect radiometric decay(unknowable pressures,temperatures,leaching,etc..).multiple strata doesn't demand long ages.

As I've mentioned before, extreme pressure and temperature tests have been done and no appreciable change in decay rates have been found. Leaching can be controlled as long as the properties of the layers the fossils are found in is known. Multiple strata does require long times to solidify. A single flood would not explain the evidence of tilt followed by erosion followed by sediment deposition followed by lava. Nor would it explain the lack of very distinctive pillow lavas that should occur if everything was water covered.

"fossil fish scream out rapid burial and preservation/hardening, the are preserved with no sign of decay.

Conditions for this to happen are observed today. It does not take a flood for this to happen.

307 posted on 11/03/2005 1:20:30 PM PST by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: Thatcherite
Again, you didn't answer the question. But your insults are quite amusing. I think you fear right-wing religious Americans. You would prefer American become like England - it won't.
308 posted on 11/03/2005 1:22:00 PM PST by mlc9852
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To: RogueIsland
Oh, wait. You were serious.

That's what makes it so sad.
309 posted on 11/03/2005 1:23:27 PM PST by BikerNYC (Modernman should not have been banned.)
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To: Smokin' Joe
"I was referring to an ongoing infection of a population, or resistance thereto. Similar to the resistance europeans had to smallpox, but the Indians did not, only affecting the ability of the species to interbreed. The separate populations may be separated by viral infection as well. "

Inherited resistance to virii is a good example of evolution in action.

310 posted on 11/03/2005 1:26:30 PM PST by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: Antonello
Extending your implication that the flood did occur, and there was an ark, what makes you discount that the ancestors to today's diseases couldn't have been waterborne, or at least hitched rides on aquatic hosts?

Waterborne gonorrhea? Find me some of that and a lot of disreptuable men now have a credible excuse to give their wives.

311 posted on 11/03/2005 1:40:15 PM PST by Alter Kaker (Whatever tears one may shed, in the end one always blows one’s nose.-Heine)
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To: Rocky
"Just because they were living together in the past doesn't mean the calls were the same. It's speculation. The business about genes is a red herring. Are you suggesting you can tell what kind of mating call they had in the past, based on DNA?

If I understand what you are trying to say, you feel that all females in the previous single population responded to more than one call. If the females in one of the two populations only respond to one specific call, while females in the other group only respond to the other call, gene flow is disrupted and they are confirmed as two different species.

However, mating calls are very specific and generally tell a female which male belongs to her group and will not respond to other calls. Unless these particular frogs are an anomaly in this respect we conclude they had only one call. However, the number of initial calls is not relevant to speciation, the response or non-response to a call determines whether gene flow is disrupted.

DNA can not tell whether they had a single call or not, but that is not what I said. DNA will tell us if they in fact were a single intra-breeding population and mDNA will tell us when they separated. The thing about the genes was not a red herring, you simply didn't understand the significance of the mention of them.

312 posted on 11/03/2005 1:44:20 PM PST by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: P-Marlowe
Just 8000 years ago these animals were... frogs. And now, after a mere 8000 years they have evolved into... frogs.

Just a few hundred thousand years ago, our ancestors were primates, and we're still primates, so I guess that means you're a living example of Homo ergaster. Right?

313 posted on 11/03/2005 1:45:59 PM PST by Alter Kaker (Whatever tears one may shed, in the end one always blows one’s nose.-Heine)
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To: Alter Kaker; P-Marlowe
so I guess that means you're a living example of Homo ergaster. Right?

Hey now.., getting into the stratosphere of high level evo debate, were any on this train?

And if two trains leave Chicago traveling in opposite directions at 60 mph, and one contains a carload of apes, and one contains a carload of evolutionists ........
314 posted on 11/03/2005 2:28:09 PM PST by RunningWolf (tag line limbo)
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To: mlc9852
Lets run through the sequence again, with some added emphasis to make it easier for the lurkers (and the very dim):

You: Do you see this as a political or scientific matter? I think it is more political for you.

Me: It gets quite comic at times. You are like one of the characters in a Smullyan logical puzzle who only entertains false beliefs. This matter is 100% scientific. Religious folks of all political persuasions attack evolution because they think (perhaps correctly though many Christians say not) that it attacks the basis of their faith. The characteristic the evolution nay-sayers tend to share is a total lack of interest in the evidence, and a pretence that they are interested in science.

You: Again, you didn't answer the question. But your insults are quite amusing. I think you fear right-wing religious Americans. You would prefer American become like England - it won't.

You aren't very good at this reading thing yet, are you. Obviously the work of a legal secretary doesn't require comprehension skills. Feel free to provide any example of me not answering one of your questions. It is easy to see how scientific evidence passes you by... You don't seem to be capable of reading and understanding your own posts, let alone mine.

And I don't fear right-wing religious Americans. Lots of them post on the evo side in this forum. Bible Idolators are a different matter however.

315 posted on 11/03/2005 3:29:39 PM PST by Thatcherite (Feminized androgenous automaton euro-weenie blackguard)
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To: mlc9852
Where do you see a conflict?

You agreed that you reject the earth sciences. Then you went back to saying that your only beef is with evolution, specifically from apes to people. You need to make your mind up which parts of science you accept and which parts you reject.

316 posted on 11/03/2005 3:59:07 PM PST by Thatcherite (Feminized androgenous automaton euro-weenie blackguard)
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To: Thatcherite

I don't totally reject earth science and think it is quite interesting.


317 posted on 11/03/2005 4:15:59 PM PST by mlc9852
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Placemarker and plug for The List-O-Links.
318 posted on 11/03/2005 7:05:23 PM PST by PatrickHenry (Reality is a harsh mistress. No rationality, no mercy)
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To: PatrickHenry

"A welcome break from the trial."I'll second that.Good article.This is a very good example of evolution at work.


319 posted on 11/03/2005 8:19:36 PM PST by Thombo2
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To: mlc9852
I don't totally reject earth science and think it is quite interesting.

But nevertheless you reject most of it. You seem to have a Chinese Buffet approach to science, where you pick and choose only small smidgens that seem of "interest" to you.

Nobody cares what you're interested in.

320 posted on 11/03/2005 9:06:42 PM PST by Alter Kaker (Whatever tears one may shed, in the end one always blows one’s nose.-Heine)
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