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To: Vicomte13; cicero's_son

I'm sorry to say I find your post a mistatement of the racial situation in the US. It follows the party line of many European countries, and our own Cindy Sheehan types including in our media, in seeking to smear the US and paint us as having a huge racial divide and oppressive poverty. The most recent example of this desire to tar us is the way the hurricane and its aftermath was depicted in the European press.

The estimated death toll was grossly exagerated (it stands at 1067 so far), and that from a Europe who saw close to 50,000 die in a heat wave. The looting while distressing was very limited and fast finished. The failures to evacuate etc turned out to be attributable in large part to the negligence and indifference of a Black mayor.

The US has a large Black middle class even though this group rarely makes the paper. Our standard of living is much higher than Europe's and thus our poverty is less than Europeans imagine. Black home ownership has reached record highs under President Bush whose indifference to Blacks is regularly touted by groups such as the NAACP interested in perpetuating the racial divide.

I strongly agree with the post of cicero's_son and this comment -- "Unlike France and other European nations, we are not and have never been a nation of blood, but a nation of ideas."

You draw parallels between riots and crime. The same parallels exist in France. Here however the crime is addressed by some excellent local politicians such as Giuliani when he was mayor of NYC and lowered the crime rate dramatically. In fact crime around the country has been lowered 32% since 1995 per recent statistics.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/10/17/crime.rate/

In contrast in France crime by Muslims has been allowed to continue and even when addressed receives only minor sentences by leftist judges. Whole Muslim neighborhoods are considered 'no go' zones by French police. Such a situation does not exist in US. Also in France Muslim hooligans in school are allowed to take over and intimidate students and teachers. That was the reason for the ban on the Hijab in schools instead of cracking down directly on the violence. (as an aside Mr Sarkozy opposed this ban as did the US)

By example the area you mention, Clichy sous Bois, was the scene of many anti-Semitic crimes, arson of a synagogue in 2002 being just one. Crimes in these Muslim dominated areas has been allowed to continue without correction. There was never a crackdown but tolerance. Voila, riots now. You yourself allude to this tolerance when you say that there has been no killing since they understand that line can not be crossed. Also Clichy is the home of a large number of NEW immigrants.

The other fallacy in your analysis is that the Beur boys who have been born and raised in France are not much of an Islamist risk ("beur boys are not going to give up sex with girls for the astringent Islamist purity codes"). I think the young men in London on 7/11 gave proof of the danger of that thinking.

While I agree with the excellence and toughness of the French security forces, in marked contrast to those in the UK, their very existence and toughness belies the idea that the risk is minimal.




96 posted on 11/03/2005 11:43:27 AM PST by dervish (no excuses)
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To: dervish

We disagree on some things.

But on others you have manufactured a disagreement.
I did not refer to black relations in the United States in the present tense. I referred to the explosions in the 1960s and 1970s, when segregation was very real, and so were very violent riots, and the murder rates in America were producing casualties at higher rates than open warfare.

That is not the America of today.
Since Roe v. Wade in 1973, abortion has been particularly effective at reducing the ranks of the criminal underclass. Crime rates all across America, and not merely in Mr. Giuliani's New York, began to plummet 16 years after Roe v. Wade. This was not the result of sweeping changes that brought in good politicians everywhere, for many politicians remained bad. It was, rather, the direct and natural sociological impact of very heavy abortion rates in the underclass, eliminating a substantial portion of the criminal unborn.

Now, I personally consider abortion to be willful homicide, and therefore do not support the practice despite the prophylactic eugenic effect it has had on crime.

All of that said, I did not mention it before, and I never brought up the hurricane or the current state of black-white relations in America, other to say that they are reasonably calm, that there are substantial zones under primarily black rule, which allows for political patronage among blacks that thereby keeps the natural leaders occupied and engaged in the system. I also stated the truth: that there remains a substantial gap between the status of blacks and whites in America. However, it is not explosive.

I believe that France's situation is akin to America's in the 1960s, and that we are not seeing the birth of Eurabia from that sliver of the population. We are seeing young French Arabs acting out their anger that they are not fairly integrated into the rest of French society, and suffer therefore. I cannot disagree with them that this is true.

As to standards of living being much higher than in France.
I disagree. I live and work in both places, and have family in both places. France and America are not much discernible in terms of wealth. One can see certain cultural features that are better in one place or the other, and certain economic features that are preferable in each nation. Which place has a higher "standard of living" is a very subjective factor anyway, decided by what one choses to use as a benchmark, and how one weights it.

Where would I personally prefer to live?
I would like to live in a chateau in the Touraine and enjoy the food, wine and atmosphere, but to earn an American CEO's salary to be able to pay for it all.

America is not hands down better than France, certainly.
Or the reverse.
Both places have wonderful parts, and both places have bad parts.



97 posted on 11/03/2005 12:15:25 PM PST by Vicomte13 (Et alors?)
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