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To: betty boop; Alamo-Girl
[ The world that quantum field theory describes is not at all the world that you and I are accustomed to living and thinking in. If the theory is correct, then all our human perceptions of “concrete bodies” in nature is subject to reconsideration. ]

Been studying this stuff for awhile too.. Seems like a lot of if'n to me.. Kantian and Hegelian figments long ago bored me.. but string theory as much I can grasp seemed interesting.. for awhile.. You know what I did, I developed a theory of my own.. Scientific?.. LoL.. not hardly.. And until something concrete is proven (to me) I'm gonna go with it..

I propose that this Universe is composed of designated matter and un-designed matter.. Any matter is energy in one form or the other.. and human spirit is un-designated matter.. all the solids we know about are designated matter.. basically everything "I' know about in the Universe as this Universe is designated.. thats where I get the Universe is three dimensional but the spirit is 4th dimensional.. Because I cannot justify the 1st and 2nd dimensions.. anything I know of deemed 1st or 2nd dimensional is still 3 dimensional always.. actually I know of nothing not 3rd dimensional and no way to prove any other dimensions exist except in our heads.. Like we are limited to this dimension.. for NOW.. that is my point.. i.e. the 4th dimension being the spiritual dimension..

Is it TRUE.?. who knows.. If there is a God and God can manipulate "matter" at will.. Why not.. Mathematics can conceive of infinity but that don't mean it can access infinity accurately or at all. There could be a Cypher Ceiling to math.. i.e. so far and no farther.. For sure there is with me a Cypher Cieling..

Designated matter and un-designated matter.. has possibilities and some string theory might even support it too.. Jesus walking on water etc.. might not be mythical visions of a fanatical moonbat.. What IF "we" with a new conduit(BODY) could designate or un-designate matter in this Universe, in the "future".. Kinda gives "heaven" a whole new scope and a range of possibles.. Anyway maybe I'M the Moonbat.. I'm o.k wid dat... been one for a long time.. I'm used to it..

Course YOU conversing with a Moonbat might effect your good name.. d;-) LoL..

615 posted on 11/16/2005 8:06:54 PM PST by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole..)
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To: hosepipe; betty boop; cornelis; Bouilhet; Amos the Prophet
Thank you so much for your engaging post! I'm going to resist the urge to go into a long discussion of geometric physics and just narrow in on one point you raised: infinity.

Mathematics can conceive of infinity but that don't mean it can access infinity accurately or at all.

Seems to me that the science and religon threads both could benefit from a better understanding of infinity v void, e.g. infinite time v timelessness.

Infinity, which is boundarylessness, is a sometimes helpful construct in mathematics but it doesn't translate well in physics:

Because we are able to assign a symbol to represent ‘infinity’ and manipulate such a symbol according to specific rules, one might assume that corresponding infinite entities (e.g. particles or universes) exist. But the actual (i.e. realized in contrast to potential or conceptual) physical (in contrast to mathematical) infinite has been criticized vehemently being not constructible, implying contradictions, etc. (cf. Hilbert 1964, p. 136-151, Spitzer 2000, Ellis & Kirchner 2004, ch 5). If this were correct it should also apply to an infinite past. - Vaas, Rudiger “Time before Time”

And truly the various cosmologies of infinite past have all failed. For one thing, the measurement of the cosmic microwave background radiation back in the 60’s established that the universe (space/time) is expanding and therefore it had a ‘real’ beginning. Einstein abandoned his cosmological constant as “kluged” and the Lemaître and Eddington theories for a hesitating universe were disproven in the 1970’s by Vahe Petrosian.

Thus cosmology is stuck with a beginning; it must recognize the void, not simply appeal to infinity.

To visualize the issue, consider the number zero v. null. One could meditate about a line of all possible numbers. Zero would be at the center. Negative numbers would proceed in one direction –1, -2, -3 on to infinity. Positive numbers would proceed in the other direction 1, 2, 3 on to infinity. But if one were to reverse direction by decimal extensions counting from 1 and –1 towards zero, reducing by half (or any percentage less than 100) each time - the number would continually be smaller but the process would never arrive at zero.

The same may be said of decimal extensions in other scenarios (such as the extension of 1/3) but zero is unique because it serves as a placemarker, e.g. 201 means there are no tens. Not that “tens” don’t exist, but for this particular number there are no tens.

But null is much more than a placemarker – it is more like the zero we can identify but not approach. To use the 201 example, if we were to state 2_1 we would be saying that tens do not exist at all.

With regard to physical reality, null is infinite non-existence – empty, void. This is the context of a beginning, of Creation – not merely zero spatial and/or temporal dimensions but null itself – no physical laws, no physical constants, no causality, no energy/matter, no physical object or event. Consequently, no phenomenon, no mathematics, no logic, no reason, no qualia, no autonomy, no language, no universals. When everything else is removed, in the void, “all that there is” is God Himself, the only possible uncaused cause. Thus the beginning and existence is an act of His will.

Jewish mystics use a Hebrew term for this state to describe God as creator: Ayn Sof. The term basically means “no-thing” - One without end from which all being emerges and into which all being dissolves.

All cosmologies – whether big bang, multi-verse, multi-world, ekpyrotic, cyclic, chaotic inflation, imaginary time – require a beginning (uncaused cause in the void) - because all of them require geometry for physical causation.

621 posted on 11/16/2005 10:01:15 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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