Posted on 10/30/2005 9:58:21 PM PST by baseball_fan
I don't know that "McNamara's Morons" (as referenced in STOLEN VALOR)were restricted to Army/USMC. I believe some went Navy. As I understand few were sent to Vietnam. Although for a time, USMC had a two-year enlistment. The dates of these two programs are close together...
" ... The original Vietnamese version of that intercept, unlike many other intercepts from the same period, is missing from the agency's archives, the official said."
Really ... potentially controversial documents in the NSA archives grew legs. The pattern continues ... Who knew!
Nice summary. Bookmarked.
A lot more than a few went to Vietnam. Remember too that the standards for the draft were lower than the standards for regular enlistments even before project 100,000. It was a long war and the government needed cannon fodder.
My understanding of this program promulgated by McNamara was that few of those accepted were actually sent to VN. I suppose it depends on one's definition of "few" and "some."
HSG: Thanks for your comments which dovetail with Robert's.
All: I think that anyone reading a lot into (1) the nuances of translation or (2) missing documents doesn't quite grasp how the US gathers and uses signals intelligence.
Initial translator/interceptor notes, etc (which I presume are almost all on computer now and therefore retained until the sun goes nova) were always considered "working papers" and were always destined for the burn bag or mulch machine, not for the National Archives. I suspect these "missing documents" stem not from anything being objectively missing, but from people trying to apply court-of-law forensics (which place great store in contemporaneous notes) to a document handling system that has other priorities.
d.o.l.
Criminal Number 18F
[...I think that anyone reading a lot into (1) the nuances of translation or (2) missing documents doesn't quite grasp how the US gathers and uses signals intelligence."
Initial translator/interceptor notes, etc (which I presume are almost all on computer now and therefore retained until the sun goes nova) were always considered "working papers" and were always destined for the burn bag or mulch machine, not for the National Archives...]
Regarding "were always destined for the burn bag," how does that explain then their having many of the other intercepts?
"The original Vietnamese version of that intercept, unlike many other intercepts from the same period, is missing from the agency's archives, the official said."
If such figures exist, I've not saw them.
Don't get me wrong, I believe Vietnam was the right war, fought the wrong way. If we don't fight Communist expansion in Southeast Asia, we don't win the Cold War (or at least victory would have been delayed for several decades).
Now what LBJ really deserved to get skewered for is "The Great Society" and the way he micromanaged the fighting in Vietnam.
"Well it's official, the press is no longer trying to making the Iraqi War look like the Vietnam War. Instead, the press' new tactic is to lie/alter evidense to make the Vietnam War look like their warped view of the Iraqi War."
Agree. What the press fails to note is there is no dispute that Saddam was regularly shooting SAM missles at our planes.
"The original Vietnamese version of that intercept, unlike many other intercepts from the same period, is missing from the agency's archives, the official said."
Not sure that there is really a difference here for two reasons: 1) it's an anonymous source. 2) quoted by the Times (whose desire to score political points always trumps accuracy). And 3) note that the anonymous guy said "The original Vietnamese version of that intercept, unlike many other intercepts from the same period,". He didn't say unlike all or unlike most.
The people who are copying this stuff are interested in its immediate value, and they care little about saving it for posterity or even for a more leisurely analysis. This is especially true about shipboard intercept operators or airborne intercept operators who are dealing with what appear to be threats to US forces.
Bear in mind, too, that these aren't people who know the Vietnamese language backwards and forwards. They're usually junior ratings who have spent a year in language school picking up rudiments, and maybe two or three months in technical school learning how radios work, and how enemy messages are organized.
Then consider that they are copying voice or morse signals that are coming from a torpedo boat pounding through the sea.
You're not going to find elegant transcripts under these circumstances. I think the report is el toro poo poo, picked by the Times to advance their mythology of Vietnam as the war they bravely fought for their side (the NVA) and the model of all things good in the world.
d.o.l.
Criminal Number 18F
One of several anti-NSA articles lately.
"I was told if I voted for Goldwater, that we would get into a long unwinnable war, and have riots in the streets. I did, and darned if they weren't right."
The same thing happened to my wife and I, my parents, my sister and her husband, my in laws and a lot of cousins.
Actually I was 1 year-old in '64, but I couldn't pass it up.
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