What a fantastic generalization... is it cause or effect they do not want to do this "hard work"?
I wouldn't want to bust my ass for 40k a year as a senior programmer, working 60+ hours a week, does that make me lazy or stupid or both? Does it make any difference how much money a company earns or saves from a programmer's efforts or is it always about saving $20k annually per employee?
I've had the "privilege" of working with H1-B and offshore "programmers" and I can tell you they have been woefully under skilled and lack the independent drive of their US counterparts. They lack imagination and have no commitment or loyalty to the contracting company. Add to that the piss poor abilities of management to understand how to manage remote groups or identify under skilled developers and the net productivity loss is astounding.
When they move to the next contract you risk losing your intellectual capital to a competitor because they normally stay within the same business domain and can command a higher salary from knowledge gained at your expense.
Corporations are about to learn a powerful lesson, "you get what you pay for".
Going cheap is really just deferring costs at the expense of productivity and inventiveness throughout the development life cycle. But what the hell, they are getting their bonuses now and will be gone in a few years anyway and will not have to deal with the ramifications of their actions. They got the money and it's getting close to time to run.
RM: What a fantastic generalization... is it cause or effect they do not want to do this "hard work"?
A very legitimate question, but the answer to it is well-known: just count how many domestic students in this country go for "hard" majors like mathematics, physics, engineering other than computer science. That is what I was referring to. It's too hard to get that major when one does not know how to count or read well after high school. It's also hard in the present-day, immediate-gratification culture to forgo practically any income and incur a lot of debt when pursuing a Ph.D. program. Foreigners are glad to do that and will hiss your behind for the opportunity. When in need of a Ph.D. to teach a business administration, physics or mathematics course, the universities have to go internationally. And apply for the corresponding visas.
I wouldn't want to bust my ass for 40k a year as a senior programmer, working 60+ hours a week,
In the post to which you are replying, I said that it was tiring to hear programmers whining about their salaries. The sentence you quoted referred to college faculty. Yes, Americans by an large do not want to do that hard work, and the statistics demonstrate.
does that make me lazy or stupid or both?
Not at all. All it makes you a spoiled, egotistical whiner. Traditionally, we Americans asked first, how much am I worth? Can I be (become rich by making myself) useful?
Note that none of that even entered your thought.
The question is not what you want: the question is how much you are worth. They markets are telling you that you are not worth as much as used to be the case. But, being focused entirely on yourself, you simply don't get the main message.
Does it make any difference how much money a company earns or saves from a programmer's efforts or is it always about saving $20k annually per employee?
I don't even know that this means. Do you?
I've had the "privilege" of working with H1-B and offshore "programmers" and I can tell you they have been woefully under skilled and lack the independent drive of their US counterparts.
You still don't get it.
If you produce 10 gadgets per day and receive $100 in wages, and I produce 5 gadgets per day and receive $40 in wages, which one of us is better, more productive? Clearly, you are. Which one is worth his keep? I am, because I cost $8 per gadget and you cost $10, while those gadgets sell at the same price. What will make you as worthy as I, less skilled worker? A drop in your salary. No, not to $40 as many ignorami claim: only to $80. Then you, a more skilled worker, will be as worthy as I am.
You not only don't know the answers to questions --- you don't even approach them from the right direction. How can you decide where your rightful place in the workforce is when you don't even know how people that buy your services think?
And, why don't you know these basics? You don't have to answer me, ask yourself.
They lack imagination and have no commitment or loyalty to the contracting company.
How much loyalty do I need when I change oil in my car? Clearly, none at all.
Again, if you asked first what is NEEEDED by employers today, you'd get on the right track towards answers. But you think in terms of what they SHOULD need. Excuse me, but who the h-ll are you, a person without even basic knowledge of economics or business administration, to tell people that are experts in those areas what they should want? Who on earth are you to tell corporate CEOs and middle managers what their needs are?
Add to that the piss poor abilities of management to understand
You have not clue how stupid this remark sounds from a person that demonstrated complete ignorance in this area. You don't have to know, but you'd help yourself by refraining from such "wise" statements.
that how to manage remote groups or identify under skilled developers and the net productivity loss is astounding.
And, it was you, of all people, that assessed the losses and found them astounding?
When they move to the next contract you risk losing your intellectual capital to a competitor because they normally stay within the same business domain and can command a higher salary from knowledge gained at your expense.
And all those MBAs, all those consultants with Ph.D.s that they hire --- all these people do not know this?
Corporations are about to learn a powerful lesson, "you get what you pay for".
Thank G-d we have you to teach them that lesson.
Don't you see what's going on: being so full of confidence about YOUR abilities and about YOUR knowlege that you are willing to come to ridoculous concusions -- that corporate managers, with higher education, who are paid millions per year for thyeir knowledge and skills, do not know something obvious to you, a person whose only knowledge is VBA and Java syntax? Do you not see how ridiculous this is?
Your problem is clearly not the lack of intelligence but your values. Me-first ideiology is what leads you to these conclusions and, ultimately, unhapiness: you can't impove as long as you refuse to do so. And now, the expected punchline:
But what the hell, they are getting their bonuses now
And all those owners, corporate boeards, consulting companies, business professors are all so stupid that they are simply payng those bonuses for nothing.
DO you self a fovor: buy a book on economics and business administration. You aready know enough Java.
Re: "When they move to the next contract you risk losing your intellectual capital to a competitor because they normally stay within the same business domain and can command a higher salary from knowledge gained at your expense." It is worse than that, years ago we had developed our own database security system as there was not on the market that was worth a damn. After we brought in some contractors to make changes to our procurement system, all of a sudden our front end security system started showing up in products created overseas, minus the Company Logo, and copyright notice of course. The company was miffed but likes the lower cost of contractors, and increased the number of contractors on site. Personally I have nothing against H1-B holders they are only trying to make a living, they make more here than in India. One of the ones I work with has a modest apartment in Houston and two houses in India, and yes they do pay taxes in the US.
> I've had the "privilege" of working with H1-B and offshore "programmers" and I can tell you they have been woefully under skilled and lack the independent drive of their US counterparts.
Half of them are bloodthirsty upper-caste types, or islamist; the other half are subservient lower-caste types. NExt to none of them have any roots or loyalty to the US. The real problem is the damage to our society. The dumba$$ free traitors can't see this as they are blinded by either $$ or their simpleminded ideology.