[tortoise]

Getting back to observation though - many (if not most of us) observe that we and others exercise free will.

This assertion is unqualified. How do you know when you are observing "free will"? What measure are you using?

It is particularly disingenuous to use human unpredictability as evidence of this when we can prove mathematically that strictly deterministic humans must have this property as well. Both non-deterministic and deterministic humans will defy prediction by humans as a necessary mathematical consequence, so observations of non-predictability and apparent liberty in choice are NOT evidence of "free will", as ALL systems will have this property in a similar context. You will need a much stronger measure, but you won't be able to provide it.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for your reply!

How do you know when you are observing "free will"?

When I climb the leaning tower of Pisa and throw over the side a live albatross, a dead albatross and a 12 lb cannonball, the live albatross chooses to fly away. The dead albatross and the 12 lb cannonball cannot make a choice.

What measure are you using?

Again, observation. Take a dead dog and live dog and put a dish of rice and a dish of Alpo in front of them.

This isn't rocket science.

Sure, using complex system theory one can predict markets and other such patterns of behavior. It is predictable because people are predictable, but that doesn't mean that people do not make choices, or that dogs don't make choices or that albatrosses don't make choices.

That the live albatross would choose to fly away instead of dive bombing into the pavement is a pretty solid prediction, but it doesn't mean it is strongly determined by his physico-chemical makeup or DNA. If it were, the dead albatross could have made a choice, too, not to go *splat*.

Likewise, that the dog prefers Alpo over rice is also a pretty solid prediction. But change the freedom of choice to Alpo v. Kibbles n bits and it might be a toss up. Then again, my dog will eat neither one no matter how hungry he is. But that's his qualia at work and his free will.

Even cells make choices. And as the McConnell experiments show, the regenerated half of the flatworm which had no brain remembers the same stimulus as the regenerated half which did - choosing to scrunch up rather than being zapped when exposed to light.

And likewise, 100 army ants on a flat surface will walk in a circle until they die of exhaustion. But put a million of them together and they form a colony, conduct raids, keep a geometry, a calendar and a constant temperature in the nest.

These are all manifestations of decision-making and awareness - free will - in nature.