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To: Stultis

***even though Darwin never advocated anything remotely resembling Nazi policies;***

The ideas are implicit in his though. Man is an animal. Only the stong and well suited survive. Hitler thought his race was the superior race. etc.


***what would you have us infer from the Nazis seizing on a major CHRISITIAN theologian who DID, in his time, advocate policies that precisely prefigured Nazis policies***

I am only vaguely familiar with Luther's supposed anti-semitism.



***If you intend the more indirect connection between evolution and Nazism (which had nothing to do with the direct intentions of evolutionary theory) to reflect negatively on the validity of evolution, what should we infer about Christianity based in its connection to Nazism in respect to the explicit and correctly understood intentions of Luther?***

All I can say is that if Luther was guilty of what you charge then he was wrong and Paul would have wrung his neck for it. But thanks be to God that Jesus Christ is the standard of truth and not M. Luther. The Bible clearly teaches thet the Jews are still God's chosen people and that He will curse those who curse them - so if Martin did the above then he was going AGAINST the teaching of Scripture.


***But your logic, and your rhetorical standards and tactics, are clearly different from mine.***

Are you saying ideas have no relation to actions?


322 posted on 10/16/2005 8:26:33 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus
Hitler thought his race was the superior race. etc.

Ah, but Hitler thought his race was created by God to be the superior race. Not a point against Darwin at all.

388 posted on 10/17/2005 7:57:39 AM PDT by highball ("I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." -- Thomas Jefferson)
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To: PetroniusMaximus
***even though Darwin never advocated anything remotely resembling Nazi policies;***

The ideas are implicit in his though. Man is an animal. Only the stong and well suited survive. Hitler thought his race was the superior race. etc.

No, that's not implicit. Evolution only "cares" about adaptation, and an organism can adapt by cooperating with other individuals or other species as well as by "struggling" against them. Sure, agonistic strategies are often produced by evolution, but so are cooperative ones. And "struggle" is not a good in and of itself as the Nazis thought. It is only adaptive or maladaptive ("good" or "bad") in the context of some specific environment.

Again, the Nazis appealed to a cartoon version of evolution. If you engage in guilt by association at that low level, then any doctrine is vulnerable; including Christianity, cartoon versions of which are practiced by racist groups TODAY (not 60 years ago) by groups such as the Christian Identity sects.

400 posted on 10/17/2005 8:34:59 AM PDT by Stultis
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To: PetroniusMaximus
I am only vaguely familiar with Luther's supposed anti-semitism.

Follows a small sample. More available at the Medieval Source Book:

What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blaspemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we must pratice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengenance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice:

First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly - and I myself was unaware of it - will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.

Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. (remainder omitted)

Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. For they have justly forfeited the right to such an office by holding the poor Jews captive with the saying of Moses (Deuternomy 17 [:10 ff.]) in which he commands them to obey their teachers on penalty of death, although Moses clearly adds: "what they teach you in accord with the law of the Lord." Thoses villains ignore that. They wantonly employ the poor people's obedience contrary to the law of the Lord and infuse them with this poison, cursing, and blasphemy. In the same way the pope also held us captive with the declaration in Matthew 16 {:18], "You are Peter," etc, inducing us to believe all the lies and deceptions that issued from his devilish mind. He did not teach in accord with the word of God, and therefore he forfeited the righ to teach.

Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let they stay at home. (...remainder omitted).

Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. The reason for such a measure is that, as said above, they have no other means of earning a livelihood than usury, and by it they have stolen and robbed from us all they possess. Such money should now be used in no other way than the following: Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred florins, as personal circumstances may suggest. With this he could set himself up in some occupation for the support of his poor wife and children, and the maintenance of the old or feeble. For such evil gains are cursed if they are not put to use with God's blessing in a good and worthy cause.

Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen 3[:19]}. For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.


405 posted on 10/17/2005 8:51:36 AM PDT by Stultis
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