Backers of high-speed rail growing more optimistic

The Cleveland Plain Dealer ^ | Sunday, October 09, 2005 | Rich Exner

[Willie Green]

I went back to Ohio
But my city was gone
There was no train station
There was no downtown
South Howard had disappeared
All my favorite places
My city had been pulled down
Reduced to parking spaces
A, o, way to go Ohio

Well I went back to Ohio
But my family was gone
I stood on the back porch
There was nobody home
I was stunned and amazed
My childhood memories
Slowly swirled past
Like the wind through the trees
A, o, oh way to go Ohio

I went back to Ohio
But my pretty countryside
Had been paved down the middle
By a government that had no pride
The farms of Ohio
Had been replaced by shopping malls
And muzak filled the air
From Seneca to Cuyahoga Falls
Said, a, o, oh way to go Ohio

[Grut]

Connecting to the regional dirigible port for longer trips, I presume.

[Cagey]

Amtrak can't keep their wheels on the tracks at 60MPH. Imagine the government running a railroad at twice that speed?

[Cobra64]

Swiss rail is fantastic. I spent 6 months travelling between Zurich and Luzerne. Their cars are so clean, and quiet. The tracks are smooth as silk. No jerky clitty-clack at all.

[ndkos]

If this is such a great thing, then why not let private investors build a high speed train?

Answer: Because while the train may be fast and quiet it is not economically feasable.

Imagine any private company in the world with a negative 50 percent profit margin!! That's horrible and the thought that Congress wants more of our $$$$ to "fix" this problem is disgraceful.

[clee1]

Another mass-transit boondoggle that people won't use; after all the money spent to build it, it will continue to operate in the red to provide jobs for goobermint workers.

Just damn.

[Ben Mugged]

Mixing ground and rail transportation in the same plane invariably produces major problems. San Jose Calif put in a light rail system and I recommended they use an elevated rail system rather than a ground-based one. They didn't listen and now they have several collisions with cars and buses every week as well as slowdowns associated with concession. Elevated systems offer much in the way of land use and safety and high speed monorail service is quiet and fast. Some trains are approaching 300 MPH and are used as alternatives to air travel in short-haul regions. Government simply does not have the investment capital to install a major Maglev system at a cost of $50M per mile. Several companies have offered a public-prive partnership with states and the federal Government to fund these projects with the majority of the money coming from venture capital.

[Logophile]

Train ridership has steadily increased between Milwaukee and Chicago, as it has for trains in California, such as a popular run between Sacramento and the Bay Area. In those cases, the states are paying about half the operating costs, with fares covering the rest. . . . The Ohio Rail Development Commission, which has studied and refined the Ohio plan, believes fares could pay 100 percent of the operating cost in Ohio. That could mean around $50 each way from Cleveland to Columbus. . . . To build the $3.5 billion system, largely by upgrading existing track, Ohio needs federal help. No state money is budgeted for construction.

I have always loved traveling by train. That is, until my last trip on Amtrak. Never have I experienced such miserable service. That convinced me that the government should not be in the transportation business. (Or any other kind of business, for that matter.)

It bothers me that even on the most popular routes, tax money still pays half the operating costs. The Ohio Rail Development Commission may say they believe that fares can pay all of the costs, but I doubt that their calculations will stand up to scrutiny.

As for construction costs, not even the Ohio Rail Development Commission is proposing that they be paid out of fares. Instead, Ohio is looking to the Federal Government—which is another way of saying, they are looking to soak the taxpayers again.

If passenger rail were economical, it should not need such massive subsidies.

[PeteB570]

Easy there, easy there.

Keeping the wheels on the track will be no problem after the government starts writing checks for upgrades. Of course it will be tax payer money and Amtrak will still not get enough riders for it to operate in the black.

That will lead to more subsidies.

[DTogo]

High-speed rail travel in Japan is a huge success. But the demographics and economics are 180 degrees from here: you have half the population of America crammed into the space of California.

[avile]

the govt subsidies the airline industry with airports and the air traffic control.
it subsidizes autos with roads and bridges.
perhaps the feds should control the rails and let private companies use the lines.

[babyface00]

You'd be in Columbus, for example, in one hour and 38 minutes.

I travel back and forth between Cleveland and Columbus once or twice a month. It takes about 2 hours, although granted I only go to the northernmost edge of the city (coming from cleveland).

My question is, what do you do when you get there? Columbus (and Cleveland, for that matter) are hardly composed of dense urban areas - most of the businesses are located in the outskirts and, at least in Cleveland, are often not serviced by public transportation.

That means you end up renting a car at your destination (which is probably going to be the city center - so you have to fight traffic out and then back in to get back to the terminal), which, for me, would eat up all the time savings, and increase the expense.

True, you could get a couple of hours' work done on the train, if your job lends itself to that, but frankly, the commute between Cleveland and Columbus isn't all that bad - if ODOT would ever finish construction on I-71, it would be even better.

Even at today's gas prices, the $50/each way is significantly higher than the gas cost driving my FS 4wd pickup truck.

[Ostlandr]

Well said!

This is already happening in areas which were in danger of losing rail service. Either local government or a public entity such as an Economic Development Corporation purchases the tracks. The rails then become a public utility. Without the burden of property taxes and upkeep, the railroads are able to operate at a profit, taking many large trucks off our overburdened, crumbling roads.
Also, when the rails are publicly owned, this fosters competition. BNSF not giving you good service? No problem- have Norfolk Southern come in and haul your freight instead. Or buy a couple used locomotives, hire crews, and haul it yourself.
We could dispatch trains on a national network just as we do aircraft.
The wretched state of our rail network is a national disgrace. I propose, instead of pouring billions into new highways which will be overcrowded as soon as they open, we build the Ronald Wilson Reagan system of Interstate and Defense Railways, to compliment the Eisenhower Interstate Highway system. Heavy welded rail, high and wide clearances, multiple tracks, engineered for freights at 100 mph and passenger trains at 125 plus.
The technolgy exists today to protect level crossings from intrustion- the railroads can't and won't spend the money. These new railways will be either grade-separated at crossings or protected by fences and a product similar to Energy Aborption's Stopgate:

http://www.energyabsorption.com/products/permanent/stopgate.htm

Eventually I can see most of the nation's railways being managed in the same way highways, airports, waterways and seaports are managed. Government maintains the tracks, private companies run the trains. Everybody wins.
BTW I am assuming that some of the cost would be borne by extending "highway" taxes to railroads' diesel fuel, by registration and inspection on railroad locomotives, and perhaps ton/mile taxes on shipments.

[Grut]

Swiss rail is fantastic. I spent 6 months travelling between Zurich and Luzerne.

Slow, though. ;^)

[R.W.Ratikal]

110 MPH? In whose dream? In a typical mile of railroad right-of-way will be dozens of crossings, everything from busy highways and two-lane roads to goat paths.

At each crossing the train is required to slow down and sound its horn. The horn sounds continously because the train is almost always approaching a crossing.

There are long stretches of track in such sorry repair that speed is restricted to 30 or so miles per hour.

Every so many miles a train must pull off onto a siding and stop and wait to permit a train coming from the opposite direction to pass.

Rail passenger service died out because of lack of passengers. Passengers abandoned rail service because it was no longer needed.

Amtrak cannot live without subsidies. Last year Amtrak asked for 1.8 billion and got 1.2 billion. The Bush administration is trying to eliminate subsidies altogether except for commuter service in the Northeast.

Each passenger's fare must be subsidized to the tune of $30 to $200 per ride from taxpayers most of whom never see a train and few of whom ever rode on a train.

Passenger trains, at any speed, are a part of the Golden Past and are as obsolete as buggy whips, good beer, and honest politicians.

[Lx]

All Europe rail is great. In Switzerland, it's so smooth because they weld the tracks together and use concrete ties.

Have you ever crossed into Switzerland at Domodosola? Last time, we shared a car with an American brother and sister who were very young. First thing the border guard said, do you have the marijuana? I started laughing and so did he. Then they searched EVERY crevice of his and his sister's backpacks, pockets you name it. We got to the station where we were to transfer to a regional train and he asks me if I'm Italian and I say no, Portuguese and the other guard goes, no they're Americans. Since it was time for transfer, we were in a hurry and my wife kept saying, don't forget your cane. I think they thought something was hidden in it but they carried our bags to the next train with no hassles. That's like the third time we or some other American got the third degree at Domodosola.
I wish our guards were so thorough.

There are very few places you can't get to via rail in Europe. It's cool riding the TGV going over 170MPH!

[Cobra64]

I agree. Instead of going home for a twoo week break, I got the client to pay to have my wife come over from The States and pay all expenses except for meals. We took day trips all over the Alps, including foing to the town of Interlochen was really neat train ride. You go through a mountain with the rail line in a corkscrew configuration. At one minute you're looking down a few thousand feet at a Church on your right, and after 10 minutes in darkness, you're at the same level as the SAME Church on your left. Absolutely amazing. We road the World's steepest cog-rail train up the side of Mt. Titlis, had lunch with many beers, and took the cable car down the other side. My wife and I agree this was ab-so-lutley our best vacation.

[Logophile]

the govt subsidies the airline industry with airports and the air traffic control. it subsidizes autos with roads and bridges. perhaps the feds should control the rails and let private companies use the lines.

The air-traffic control system is financed by taxes and fees paid by the airline passengers. (I expect the entire system to be privatized in the very near future, as the ATC systems have been privatized in over a dozen other countries.) Most airports also charge passenger fees. Altogether, taxes and fees add about 16% to the price of an airline ticket.

That is a far cry from having the government pick up 50% of the operating costs and 100% of the construction costs of passenger rail.

As for having the government own and maintain the rails—the suggestion makes me cringe. What makes you think that the government can operate a business better than the private sector?

[Lx]

Yeppers, I remember that exact route! I didn't realize what had happened at first because you're way up there and then next thing you know you're going, wait a minute, I remember seeing this up there. Brilliant engineering. The funiculars and gondolas are cool, too.

[Poundstone]

"The air-traffic control system is financed by taxes and fees paid by the airline passengers. (I expect the entire system to be privatized in the very near future, as the ATC systems have been privatized in over a dozen other countries.) Most airports also charge passenger fees. Altogether, taxes and fees add about 16% to the price of an airline ticket."

The ATC system is also financed by fuel taxes paid by private pilots.

Although the Bush administration has been more resolute than the Clinton administration in keeping the ATC system in federal hands, Bush has still waffled. Fortunately, Congress, led by the key committee chairmen, appears determined to reject any attempt to privatize ATC. Thank God. There are so many examples of how privatized ATC is a disaster that it's daunting to even start listing them. To take one (NavCanada), look at how the system is floundering from a technology viewpoint, and how many fatal crashes have been caused by private pilots who didn't want to purchase an instrument flight plan due to the cost.

I'm confident privatized ATC will never rear its ugly head in the US.