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Evolution and intelligent design Life is a cup of tea
Economist ^ | 10/6/05 | Economist

Posted on 10/07/2005 4:59:16 AM PDT by shuckmaster

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To: taxesareforever
I don't believe in Islam.

" If you think that the Bible outlaws slavery, I would like to know where it says so."

Exodus 20:15 "Thou shalt not steal."

181 posted on 10/08/2005 8:12:57 AM PDT by spunkets
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To: newsgatherer
[Then how do you explain all those millions-of-years-old dinosaur bones?]

First, they are not millions of years old.

Wow, how lame -- you completely dodged the part where I specifically asked you to answer the above question in a way that doesn't fly in the face of the known evidence. I'm afraid that snipping that part out and then just stamping your feet and declaring "they aren't that old" doesn't cut it.

Second, a worldwide flood could and would leave millions and millions of dead things laying around in hundreds of feet of mud worldwide.

...in many characteristic ways, which unfortunately for your thesis is NOT how "dead things" are actually configured in the Earth. Geology 1, newsgatherer's fantasies 0. For example:

Problems with a Global Flood

"Polystrate" Fossils

Review of John Woodmorappe's "Noah's Ark: A Feasibility Study"

Dinosaur Prints in Coal

The Geologic Column and its Implications for the Flood

Is the Devonian Chattanooga Shale Really a Volcanic Ash-Fall Deposit?

Geology in Error?: The Lewis Thrust

Thrust Faults and the Lewis Overthrust

What Would We Expect to Find if the World had Flooded?

Problems with Walter Brown's Hydroplate Theory

Burrows in the Orkney Islands contradict the Global Flood

Why The Flood Can't Be Global

The Fish is Served With a Delicate Creamy Mercury Sauce

The Letter The Creation Research Society Quarterly Didn't Want You to See

Microfossil Stratigraphy Presents Problems for the Flood

Why Would the Flood Sort Animals by Cell Type?

Fleeing from the Flood

Isotopic Sorting and the Noah's Flood Model

Evidence from the Orkney Islands Against a Global Flood

While the Flood Rages, Termites Dig, Dinosaurs Dance and Cicadas Sing

More Nonsense on "TRUE.ORIGINS": Jonathan Sarfati's Support Of Flood Geology

Why Geology Shows Sedimentation to Be too Slow for a Global Flood

Creationist "Flood Geology" Versus Common Sense -- Or Reasons why "Flood Geology" was abandoned in the mid-1800s by Christian men of science

Which, I might add is exactly what we have, millions and millions of dead things trapped in hundreds of feet of mud worldwide.

I see... So it is actually your contention that fossils are found in "hundreds of feet of mud"?

Fascinating. So what about those that are found in *thousands* of feet of *rock*? Or do those actually not exist either?

(Folks, this is your brain on too many creationist pamphlets and not enough science books...)

182 posted on 10/08/2005 8:14:27 AM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: newsgatherer

You want examples of bad design? In man alone we have a spine that is not dapted for either going about on all fours, nor fully upright stance. This is one reason for the ease with which we suffer back injuries. Ditto for our knees and ankles. Humans are also the only animals that suffer constipation -- because of the near-vertical layout of our digestive tract.


183 posted on 10/08/2005 8:15:00 AM PDT by Junior (From now on, I'll stick to science, and leave the hunting alien mutants to the experts!)
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To: Just mythoughts
So long as man is still in flesh, there will be the argument over what the Bible does in fact say and instruct.

Yes, my point exactly.

there is not a dimes worth of difference in the ideologies if Christians are told to believe that there were only two fully grown adults created in the beginning, even given what DNA tests prove.

I can't figure out what you're trying to say here, could you rephrase please?

184 posted on 10/08/2005 8:16:48 AM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: newsgatherer; Thatcherite
"Don't lie, ... it will become apparant real fast wheter you are truthful or not."

Yeah...

185 posted on 10/08/2005 8:17:07 AM PDT by spunkets
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To: newsgatherer
Sorry you serve such a weak indecisive god...

Evidently, the God of the Bible is not above making mistakes (c.f., the whole Noah thingy).

186 posted on 10/08/2005 8:17:40 AM PDT by Junior (From now on, I'll stick to science, and leave the hunting alien mutants to the experts!)
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To: Ichneumon
I'm afraid you're REALLY going to be banging your head against the wall with this one. You might want to check your stockpile of blood-preasure meds.
187 posted on 10/08/2005 8:18:38 AM PDT by stormer (Get your bachelors, masters, or doctorate now at home in your spare time!)
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To: Ichneumon

"there is not a dimes worth of difference in the ideologies if Christians are told to believe that there were only two fully grown adults created in the beginning, even given what DNA tests prove.

I can't figure out what you're trying to say here, could you rephrase please?"


Seems as though evolution is the only method possible to have all peoples to have come from just two fully grown adult human beings. Of course Genesis describes two different days of creation, which only makes common sense considering what DNA test results show about the differences in the peoples of this earth.


188 posted on 10/08/2005 8:21:26 AM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: Junior; newsgatherer
You want examples of bad design? In man alone we have a spine that is not dapted for either going about on all fours, nor fully upright stance. This is one reason for the ease with which we suffer back injuries. Ditto for our knees and ankles. Humans are also the only animals that suffer constipation -- because of the near-vertical layout of our digestive tract.

My favorite example: Wisdom teeth. They made good sense back when we had a longer ape-like jaw, but since hominids evolved larger craniums and smaller jaws, we've got too damned many teeth for the available space. And no, they're not there as "spares", they most often end up impacted even when other molars have been lost. They cause a wide range of serious health problems, and provide next to no benefit.

Or maybe God put them there to make oral surgeons rich...

189 posted on 10/08/2005 8:21:37 AM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: stormer
I'm afraid you're REALLY going to be banging your head against the wall with this one. You might want to check your stockpile of blood-preasure meds.

Nah, laughter makes me relax...

190 posted on 10/08/2005 8:22:41 AM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: Just mythoughts
Seems as though evolution is the only method possible to have all peoples to have come from just two fully grown adult human beings. Of course Genesis describes two different days of creation, which only makes common sense considering what DNA test results show about the differences in the peoples of this earth.

Actually, under the evolutionary scenario, there were never "just two fully grown adult human beings", nor does any DNA analysis indicate that there ever has been. And you're misinterpreting those DNA results. See for example, What, if anything, is a Mitochondrial Eve?.

191 posted on 10/08/2005 8:25:17 AM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: SmartCitizen
Not ALL of the scientific community agrees with evolutionary theory.

Not all of the scientific community agree with anything. That is why we go with the consensus of scientists, which is the view of the vast majority. It is the best option.

The scientific community is what the people in power say it is.

The scientific community is composed of all the active scientists around the world.

Real science does not inhibit open exploration and re-evalution of the evidence. Real science goes where the evidence takes it.

And that is what biologists do.

Disallowing evidence (and there is plenty) that places doubt on evolutionary theory is not only unscientific but smacks of dogma.

Most of the cited evidence placing evolutionary theory in doubt is BS (http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html). Which brings me to my next point - The people in the best position to evaluate what data supports evolution, and what data puts doubt on it are the experts in the field, not laymen that populate school boards and politics. Laymen will often tend to think they've found serious holes in evolution when in fact more knowledge of the subject would show such flaws are nothing of the sort. The old "if evolution is true then why are there still monkeys?" is a classic example. And "evolution is flawed because all major animal types appeared in the cambrian" another. Doubts based on ignorace are abundant. That is why the views of those who are least ignorant are so important.

192 posted on 10/08/2005 8:26:11 AM PDT by bobdsmith
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To: Ichneumon

You're a better man than I. (Gender assumed)


193 posted on 10/08/2005 8:27:50 AM PDT by stormer (Get your bachelors, masters, or doctorate now at home in your spare time!)
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To: newsgatherer; Thatcherite; Junior
Have you ever read Darwins theory? If so, read it again objectivley, I have provided you with a link so that you will not have to buy a copy from one of the Creationist sites, since they are just about the only ones that have it for sale.

Wow, I didn't know that Amazon.com, Barnesandnoble.com, and most bookstore chains (all of which carry Darwin's books) are "Creationist sites"...

194 posted on 10/08/2005 8:28:00 AM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: Junior
Darwin's writings are available online for free.

Oh yeah? Where's his multi-volume set of books on barnacles, eh smart guy?

195 posted on 10/08/2005 8:30:23 AM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: Ichneumon
Wisdon teeth: They made good sense back when we had a longer ape-like jaw, but since hominids evolved larger craniums and smaller jaws, we've got too damned many teeth for the available space.

The real problem seems to be interproximal wear, or the lack of it in a modern diet. Chewing on tough items causes very slight up and down movement of individual teeth causing wear between adjacent teeth. The teeth drift slightly toward the midline (mesial drift I think its called). This wear and mesial drift creates just enough space to allow the third molars to erupt correctly.

In some populations that eat acorns ground in stone bowls as a staple food, by the time the third molar erupts the first molar is about 1/3 worn away, but this is a pretty extreme degree of wear.

196 posted on 10/08/2005 8:31:05 AM PDT by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: Ichneumon
Uh huh... And after they've spent the FORTY YEARS, at least (eight hours a day, five days a week) it would require to work through "ALL of the evidence for" the theory of evolution -- and a day or two covering "ALL the evidence against it" (and I'm being generous), how much time is that going to leave them for anything else?

That's a poor excuse for indoctrinating kids into philosophical naturalism.

See above. Showing them "all the evidence" would take most of a lifetime. That's how much evidence has been accumulated supporting evolution. Deal with it.

Puh-lease. They are not presented with all of the evidence for evolution now, so this is a poor argument.

There is no such censorship. Nor is there any such evidence, unless you can come up with something better than the last several hundred clueless anti-evolutionists I've talked to. Feel free to show us what you've got, though. But don't waste our time with this manure, we've seen it a thousand times before. Try something new and original.

Yes, I know you guys are good at phoney denials. The fact remains that the dogmatic high evo priests won't even allow a simple disclaimer on a textbook cover even though the school board in Atlanta wanted it! That is the epitomy of CENSORSHIP. The disclaimer read: "This textbook contains material on evolution. Evolution is a theory, not a fact, regarding the origin of living things. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully and critically considered." Egad man! What a horrible religious statement that is - asking students to think critically! Then, the evo's atheistic anti-American extortionist buds from the ACLU filed suit claiming this was promoting religion. HAHAHA!

I read a good quote today that sums it up: "When people accept the theory of evolution as an article of faith and teach it as a matter of fact and permit no dissent whatsoever from their doctrine, they are the ones wo are promoting religious dogma to all students." Great quote from Whisteblower magazine.

Besides, presenting scientific evidence of intelligent design is hardly akin to promoting a state religion. Read the first amendment -- only Congress can establish a national religion.

197 posted on 10/08/2005 8:31:10 AM PDT by SmartCitizen
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To: newsgatherer
Find me one Hebrew scholar that agees with anything other than the word day in Genesis 1 being anything other than 24 hours or a ltetarl 24 hour day.

As early as the first century, some Hebrew scholars had worked out the age of the universe to be about 15.3 billion years. While I might not agree with their methodology, it's pretty obvious at this point of the game that your knowledge of science is only marginally worse than your knowledge of religion.

198 posted on 10/08/2005 8:31:29 AM PDT by Junior (From now on, I'll stick to science, and leave the hunting alien mutants to the experts!)
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To: newsgatherer
A worldwide flood would leave the bones all jumbled up. Indricotherium would be mixed with small sauropod. Elephant would be mixed with triceratop. Compsagnathus would be mixed with chicken. Mososaur, whale and megaladon would be jumbled together in death.

None of this happened. Therefore your contention flies in the face of reality.

199 posted on 10/08/2005 8:35:37 AM PDT by Junior (From now on, I'll stick to science, and leave the hunting alien mutants to the experts!)
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To: Ichneumon

"Actually, under the evolutionary scenario, there were never "just two fully grown adult human beings", nor does any DNA analysis indicate that there ever has been. And you're misinterpreting those DNA results. See for example, What, if anything, is a Mitochondrial Eve?."

Genesis describes two different days of creation of fully grown adult human beings (more than two). Most creationists claim there is only one day of creation where only two fully grown adult human beings created.

I am not suggesting that DNA shows anything other than there had to be more than two fully grown adults created to explain the different peoples evidenced upon this earth this day.

DNA evidence does NOT dispute what the Book of Genesis says happened, rather it gives proof to there being two different days of creation and more than two fully grown adult human beings being created and the Heavenly Father said it was GOOD.




200 posted on 10/08/2005 8:41:26 AM PDT by Just mythoughts
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