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With Lenin's Ideas Dead, Russia Weighs What to Do With Body
The Ledger ^ | October 5, 2005 | C. J. CHIVERS

Posted on 10/06/2005 9:21:15 AM PDT by Tailgunner Joe

MOSCOW, Oct. 4 - For eight decades he has been lying in state on public display, a cadaver in a succession of dark suits, encased in a glass box beside a walkway in the basement of his granite mausoleum. Many who revere him say he is at peace, the leader in repose beneath the lights. Others think he just looks macabre.

Time has been unkind to Lenin, whose remains here in Red Square are said to sprout occasional fungi, and whose ideology and party long ago fell to ruins. Now the inevitable question has returned. Should his body be moved?

Revisiting a proposal that thwarted Boris N. Yeltsin, who faced down tanks but in his time as president could not persuade Russians to remove the Soviet Union's founder from his place of honor, a senior aide to President Vladimir V. Putin raised the matter last week, saying it was time to bury the man.

"Our country has been shaken by strife, but only a few people were held accountable for that in our lifetime," said the aide, Georgi Poltavchenko. "I do not think it is fair that those who initiated the strife remain in the center of our state near the Kremlin."

In the unending debate about what exactly the new Russia is, the subject of Lenin resembles a Rorschach inkblot test. People project their views of their state onto him and see what they wish. And so as Mr. Poltavchenko's suggestion has ignited fresh public sparring over Lenin's place, both in history and in the grave, the dispute has been implicitly bizarre and a window into the state of civil society here.

First came a rush to second the idea, from figures including Nikita Mikhalkov, a prominent film director and chairman of the Russian Cultural Foundation, who shares Mr. Poltavchenko's distaste for the relic.

"Vast funds are being squandered on a pagan show," Mr. Mikhalkov told Russian journalists, saying that Lenin himself wished to be buried beside his mother in St. Petersburg. "If we advocate Christian ideals, we must fulfill the will of the deceased."

Then came the backlash. Gennadi I. Zyuganov, leader of Russia's remnant of the Communist Party, lashed out at proponents of moving the remains, insisting that Lenin had no wish to be buried elsewhere.

He also made a pre-emptive strike against any suggestion of relocating other deceased Soviet leaders, who are buried under a lawn behind Lenin's mausoleum. There, along the Kremlin wall, are the remains of Yuri V. Andropov, Leonid I. Brezhnev and Konstantin U. Chernenko, as well as those of Stalin and Feliks Dzerzhinsky, founder of the Soviet secret police.

At a news conference on Friday, Mr. Zyuganov described those who would dare move those Communist figures as people "who do not know the country's history and stretch out their dirty hands and muddy ideas to the national necropolis."

His position has only hardened. "Raising this issue smells of provocation and illiteracy," Mr. Zyuganov said Tuesday in a telephone interview, during which he accused President Putin of hiding behind an aide to test the idea in public. "It seems unlikely that Poltavchenko would come out with a proposal of such desecration of Red Square without approval from the highest power."

Lenin, who led the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917, died in 1924 at the age of 53. A near theology rose around him in the ensuing decades.

Depending on who is speaking about him now, he is either a hero or a beast, a gifted revolutionary or a syphilitic mass murderer. (By some accounts he died not of strokes, the official cause of death, but of an advanced case of sexually transmitted disease.)

Some still see in him the architect of a grand and daring social experiment. Others describe an opportunist who ushered vicious cronies to power, resulting in a totalitarian police state. "It is time to get rid of this horrible mummy," said Valeriya Novodvorskaya, head of the Democratic Union, a small reform party. "One cannot talk about any kind of democracy or civilization in Russia when Lenin is still in the country's main square."

She added: "I would not care even if he were thrown on a garbage heap."

Others propose moving Lenin on religious grounds, combining words and ideas rarely associated with the man. Setting aside the matter of Lenin's atheism, Svetlana Orlova, a deputy speaker of the upper house of Parliament, told the Interfax news agency on Tuesday that his followers should consider "Lenin's soul, which has been searching for peace."

Informal polls conducted Monday by the radio station Ekho Moskvy found that 65 percent of people who called in, and 75 percent of people who contacted the station via the Internet, said that not just Lenin but all of the Soviet figures should be evicted from Red Square.

But the polls were hardly scientific, and for every Ekho Moskvy listener there often seems to be another Russian who still believes. "The name of Lenin is quite sacred," said Nikolai Kishin, 51, a clerk from the Siberian city of Irkutsk who emerged from the mausoleum on Tuesday, having paid his respects.

Such opposing views cannot be bridged any time soon, but on one point all agree: Lenin, the central symbol of the Soviet period, has survived Russia's transition and found an enduring place in public life.

His once ubiquitous statues may have mostly been torn down in Eastern Europe, but they scowl at passers-by from the Russian Pacific to the Baltic, and it is not hard to find him on pedestals, murals or plaques in nations that have made great show of shaking free from Moscow's reach, including Kyrgyzstan and Ukraine.

He loiters even in Grozny, the destroyed capital of Chechnya, the region in southern Russia where separatists have waged war against Moscow for more than a decade. While he is loved by a dwindling number of followers and hated by many, he is tolerated for reasons that mix nostalgia, resignation, political expediency and ennui.

Where Mr. Putin stands is now the central remaining question of Lenin's future address.

Mr. Putin said in 2001 that he did not want to upset the civic order by moving the founder's remains. "Many people in this country associate their lives with the name of Lenin," he said. "To take Lenin out and bury him would say to them that they have worshiped false values, that their lives were lived in vain."

Dmitri Peskov, a spokesman for Mr. Putin, said Tuesday that the president's position was unchanged and that he was not allied with Mr. Poltavchenko and others who have embraced his idea. "He is not supporting those who are insisting on removing the body immediately," Mr. Peskov said.

But Ms. Novodvorskaya and Mr. Zyuganov, two politicians who agree on almost nothing, both say the president is testing the reaction.

Ms. Novodvorskaya suggested that the president could find it useful, at a time when he is being portrayed as an autocrat, to lead a catharsis of the Lenin phenomenon. "He is trying to be taken as a democrat in the eyes of the West," she said. "He is also very fond of playing his comedies of national reconciliation."

No matter what Mr. Putin decides, there already are indications that time may ultimately do what no politician has yet achieved. The youngest Russian adults barely recall the Communist times, and some show little interest in looking back.

"Lenin," mused Natasha Zakharova, 23, as she walked off Red Square on Tuesday, admitting that she was not quite sure whose body she had just seen. "Was he a Communist?"


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: zyuganov
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To: futurekentuckylawyer
No kidding. ESPECIALLY Lenin's.
Did you see this? Ewww.

Time has been unkind to Lenin, whose remains here in Red Square are said to sprout occasional fungi...

Of course, the body of philosopher Jeremy Bentham has been on display for almost 175 years.
His head is wax, though.

61 posted on 10/06/2005 11:27:55 AM PDT by Constitution Day (When life gives you lemons, just shut up and eat your damn lemons.)
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To: Tailgunner Joe

I think his body hould be taken to a secret area in the Katyn (sp?) forest and burned, just as he had the Romanovs disposed of.


62 posted on 10/06/2005 11:33:26 AM PDT by Don W (Nevermind, I live in CUBA-NORTH!)
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To: Tijeras_Slim
Sell him on e-bay. That would convince me that Russia has embraced capitalism.

LOL! Indeed. It'd make a heck of a television ad, too.

*********

"When you can't seem to find
the baseball that's been signed,
that's on eBay!

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a men's suit that's silk-lined,
that's on eBay!

Phones that ring, pearls on a string,
organizer thing, nice Bling-Bling...
that's on eBay!

New brass bed, Commies who are dead,
Roses red, creepy shrunken head...
that's on eBay!

Buy today and it's on its way!
Other users say you will feel okay!
Thaaaaat's on eBay!"

***********

63 posted on 10/06/2005 11:55:24 AM PDT by Charles Martel
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To: Tailgunner Joe

Bury him under a disco, so that Russians can dance on his grave.


64 posted on 10/06/2005 11:55:59 AM PDT by RightWingAtheist (Bring back Modernman AND SeaLion AND Mylo!)
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To: Inwoodian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenin

Scroll down to "Lenin's Brain Study".


65 posted on 10/06/2005 12:04:04 PM PDT by Cheburashka
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To: lOKKI

"brides and grooms would make a stop there between wedding and reception... "

Actually, brides and grooms went to the Unknown Soldier Tomb near the Kremlin wall, which is a nice tradition, IMHO. To visit Lenin Tomb on such occasion would be weird, IMHO.


66 posted on 10/06/2005 12:30:24 PM PDT by Mi-kha-el ((There is no Pravda in Izvestiya and no Izvestiya in Pravda.))
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To: WoofDog123
Can you tell me about the quality of life peasants faced in russia in, say, 1905? Would they have any motive to be discontented with the monarchy?

---

Lenin had nothing to do with the overthrow of the monarchy.

The February Revolution overthrew the Monarchy and installed the Provisional Government. The Provisional Government set elections for November, 1917 to elect delegates to the Constituent Assembly, which was to write a constitution for Russia and govern Russia until the elections under that constitution were held.

In October, 1917, Lenin held a putsch to overthrow the Provisional Government, but the elections were held as scheduled the next month. The Bolsheviks got 24% of the votes.

In January, 1918 the Constituent Assembly met for one session and then Lenin and the Bolsheviks refused to let it meet again.

The Whites in the Russian Civil War were fighting for the restoration of the Constituent Assembly, not the return of the Tzar as the Bolsheviks propagandized.

That one day was the only day that Russia had an democratically elected government until Boris Yeltsin became President of Russia.

Lenin was a murderous thug. He just didn't have the time to get his killing machine organized. Stalin did.
67 posted on 10/06/2005 12:30:29 PM PDT by Cheburashka
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To: Borges
Lenin bore a grudge against the Romanovs because they had his brother killed. He wanted to ensure that there were no more claimants to the throne. Not that that excuses the act of course.
---
You didn't excuse Lenin's action, and I recognize that, but I still think you give him too much credit.

1) The Tzar's daughters' claim to the throne (which was non-existent at this time) was only after all the male Romanovs (of which there were about 35 on January 1, 1918) were dead. Rather thin excuse to kill anybody.

2) Alexander III, the man Lenin's elder brother attempted to murder, actually met with Lenin's mother before the execution to hear her pleas for his life, although he still allowed the execution of Alexander Ulyanov to take place. When did Lenin ever meet with the relatives of anyone he killed?
68 posted on 10/06/2005 12:46:32 PM PDT by Cheburashka
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To: Don W
I think his body hould be taken to a secret area in the Katyn (sp?) forest and burned, just as he had the Romanovs disposed of.
---
Actually the Tzar's family (not all of it, they never found all the bodies) was reburied in July, 1998 (seventy years after the murders) in the family crypt in St. Peterburg, Russia.

His successor as head of the Russian state, President Boris Yeltsin, gave the eulogy.

Most of the bodies had been thrown into a pit by the Bolsheviks, not burned.
69 posted on 10/06/2005 12:53:26 PM PDT by Cheburashka
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To: Tailgunner Joe

Russia Weighs What to Do With Body--how about catfish bait?


70 posted on 10/06/2005 12:54:30 PM PDT by WKUHilltopper
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To: Cheburashka

Not making him out to be any better then you claim he was.


71 posted on 10/06/2005 12:54:39 PM PDT by Borges
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Lenin should be stripped, taken north to be tied to trees and beaten -so the biting flies "could bleed him dry" as his inspired Politburo Red Army murderers did to so many men, women, and children - for the Peoples' Revolution.

Hitlary knows that vicious, communist Lenin was shot in his head by a disgruntled mere socialist, a woman with her own gun. She was propmtly "executed" by Lenin's Secret Police security.

Power by any means calls for liberty by any means.

72 posted on 10/06/2005 12:57:03 PM PDT by SevenDaysInMay (Federal judges and justices serve for periods of good behavior, not life. Article III sec. 1)
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To: WinOne4TheGipper

"to me why he had his minions murder the Tsar and his ENTIRE family"

There is a theory that that was a mere revenge for his brother Alexander who had been executed for participating in a conspiracy to assasinate Nikolas II predecessor. We were told Lenin idolized his big brother but decided to "go a different way". And he won. Eventually, he lost, but in the short run he won.


73 posted on 10/06/2005 1:02:16 PM PDT by Mi-kha-el ((There is no Pravda in Izvestiya and no Izvestiya in Pravda.))
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To: WinOne4TheGipper

"he would have showed us a "kinder, gentler" communism"

He did. His NEP was kind of Chinese pseudocapitalism.


74 posted on 10/06/2005 1:04:47 PM PDT by Mi-kha-el ((There is no Pravda in Izvestiya and no Izvestiya in Pravda.))
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To: Tailgunner Joe

Well, if winter gets cold enough they can always make sandwiches.


75 posted on 10/06/2005 1:37:18 PM PDT by theDentist (The Dems have put all their eggs in one basket-case: Howard "Belltower" Dean.)
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To: RetiredArmy

Kennedy DEFINITELY looks like an old soviet. Clintoon not so much any more since he lost weight, but before with that fat face and vacuum cleaner nose he sure as heck did too. Good call.

I fear this country is going to have to go all the way to communism for a while before the whole house of cards crumbles. We are putting up a valiant fight, but with all the sellouts and turncoats on the right it's hard to see how we can prevail.


76 posted on 10/06/2005 2:24:38 PM PDT by ichabod1 (Sheep are very intelligent. They know they need the Shepherd.)
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To: staytrue

Lenin took over the country in a violent coup d'etat by pretending to represent the workers, which he did NOT. He pretended to be the majority party, which is what Bolshevik means, and it was a lie intended to convince people he had more power than he did. Much like the radical left claiming to be mainstream when they are anything but. Lenin was most certainly NOT a good person.


77 posted on 10/06/2005 2:27:56 PM PDT by ichabod1 (Sheep are very intelligent. They know they need the Shepherd.)
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To: onedoug

Well, the Saints despite being incorruptible still need a little maintenance every now and then too...


78 posted on 10/06/2005 2:29:08 PM PDT by ichabod1 (Sheep are very intelligent. They know they need the Shepherd.)
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To: WinOne4TheGipper

Lenin would likely have done away with Stalin if he hadn't died. He knew what Stalin was. Either that or Stalin would have knocked off Lenin. There wasn't enough room for both of those monsters.


79 posted on 10/06/2005 2:32:51 PM PDT by ichabod1 (Sheep are very intelligent. They know they need the Shepherd.)
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To: Constitution Day

I heard yesterday on Fox & Friends that Lenin has turned (appropriately) bright red.


80 posted on 10/06/2005 2:33:58 PM PDT by ichabod1 (Sheep are very intelligent. They know they need the Shepherd.)
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